There has been some confusion on some of the threads that the Ironman has been canceled or moved to Fort Mill. THAT IS NOT TRUE.. We requested the 29th Last year at the USA annual meeting and have had that date confirmed twice. I was as surprised as anyone when I recieved the flyer from Brock. When I inquired with S.C.USAW I was told that either Forte (assistant coach and secretary for USA wrestling) or Brock (head wrestling coach at Fort Mill)demanded and was granted that date . I was shocked since there has been a real push not to have two tournaments in the same area of the state. We ARE in the upstate. I was also told that Fort Mill would only advertise in the Rockhill -Charlotte area . So why did i Get a flyer? Did anyone else in the upstate receive a flyer ? I know that Toney is a board member and maybe that implies special treatment but he had the same opportunity as did anyone to request this date at the annual meeting . We WILL STIILL have the Ironman on the 29th of April and would really appreciate your support. It's a great tournament with all three styles being offered, a girls division and a new custom made trophy that is truly unique, for those wrestlers that win ALL Three divisions. Just sitting the record straight.
Greenwood IRONMAN is still on.
- Thread starter Eagleguy
- Start date
Typical SC USA bullshit! Those old guys want to make a dollar! Just waters down the competition even more by having two tourneys the same weekend!
How do you get those old guys out?
How do you get those old guys out?
No demands were made by myself or Brock. At the High School State Tournament during a discussion between me, the state chair, and another Fort Mill Assistant, we were told that two tournaments on that date would work. We didn't like the first date we were given since it fell during spring break in our district and the surrounding ones and asked if there was any chance to change it. No demands were made and Chris Brock was not a part of that conversation. I have never asked for special treatment because of my volunteer position on the board, and have never pulled that card to gain advantage with anyone in any of my dealings as a club or now as a high school coach.
As for my chance to request a date at the annual meeting, I was not a part of the Fort Mill program at that time- I was still running my wrestling club in Rock Hill. Being on the Fort Mill staff wasn't even being discussed.
If you're going to mention my name in a post and then say that you're setting the record straight, at least get your facts right. I don't like getting dragged into any arguments on this forum, but will defend myself when I see my name mentioned with false statements.
As for my chance to request a date at the annual meeting, I was not a part of the Fort Mill program at that time- I was still running my wrestling club in Rock Hill. Being on the Fort Mill staff wasn't even being discussed.
If you're going to mention my name in a post and then say that you're setting the record straight, at least get your facts right. I don't like getting dragged into any arguments on this forum, but will defend myself when I see my name mentioned with false statements.
There should never be two tournaments in the upstate at the same time. Whomever is doing that is not in it for the benefit of the SC wrestlers. IF that's happening, why? Who is making these decisions?
Since the FM program and coaches were mentioned in this thread, I feel I should clarify some things.
1. Don't know who either one of you are and it would be impossible for me to care less.
2. No one stole your date, and never has it been mentioned by anyone in the FM Program that your Ironman event was cancelled. No one from the FM program "Demanded" anything. Demanding things generally does not get ya very far. Taking a business like/logical approach, and talking to people usually works best. This was approved my Ron Donlick and discussed over a month ago, and again as recently as last week. Our intent is not to hurt your event. Our primary draw is the RH/FM and Charlotte areas. However; I will say that we do indeed live in a Democratic Country and Capitalism still reigns supreme. We are welcome to promote or advertise in whatever geographic location and by any means that we so choose. Never was it discussed or agreed upon (At least by the FM Program) that we would keep our focus on our immediate area. That would be foolish and bad for business.
3. Having ran a SCUSAW event for 28 consecutive years, we have a pretty good idea of how to do it, as well as anticipated numbers and participation.
4. According to TrackWrestling the Ironman drew 62 wrestlers last year. Certainly not a Madison Square Garden sellout. Maybe walk-ins or other entries boosted those numbers and created a bigger draw. I don't know. My guess is that the majority were from the Greenwood/Greenville area, so with the exception of a few the event did not draw much from the FM/RH area.
5. I've seen the ups and downs of SCUSAW over many years. Was there when the events were drawing 300 every weekend and also at it's lowest points when events were cancelled due to low numbers of 50 or less.
6. . As mentioned, the date was approved by our state Chair. That being said, we are certainly entitled to promote and advertise our event as we so choose. Our surrounding counties, multiple top level programs, and being right here on the NC border with Clubs like Darkhorse, Arrichion, and others, we too feel that our event will provide great opportunity and wrestling.
Finally... I think it wise to consider the overall picture where wrestling and people are concerned. I hear a lot about "getting those old guys out of SCUSAW", Forte getting some favoritism because he's on the board, or another coach being a jerk because he "demanded" a date or undermined another program. Certainly SCUSAW can use improvement, as could USAW, the SCHSL, and most other wrestling organizations. However there are good things that have been done and will continue to be. Be careful what ya wish for...ya might just get it.
1. Don't know who either one of you are and it would be impossible for me to care less.
2. No one stole your date, and never has it been mentioned by anyone in the FM Program that your Ironman event was cancelled. No one from the FM program "Demanded" anything. Demanding things generally does not get ya very far. Taking a business like/logical approach, and talking to people usually works best. This was approved my Ron Donlick and discussed over a month ago, and again as recently as last week. Our intent is not to hurt your event. Our primary draw is the RH/FM and Charlotte areas. However; I will say that we do indeed live in a Democratic Country and Capitalism still reigns supreme. We are welcome to promote or advertise in whatever geographic location and by any means that we so choose. Never was it discussed or agreed upon (At least by the FM Program) that we would keep our focus on our immediate area. That would be foolish and bad for business.
3. Having ran a SCUSAW event for 28 consecutive years, we have a pretty good idea of how to do it, as well as anticipated numbers and participation.
4. According to TrackWrestling the Ironman drew 62 wrestlers last year. Certainly not a Madison Square Garden sellout. Maybe walk-ins or other entries boosted those numbers and created a bigger draw. I don't know. My guess is that the majority were from the Greenwood/Greenville area, so with the exception of a few the event did not draw much from the FM/RH area.
5. I've seen the ups and downs of SCUSAW over many years. Was there when the events were drawing 300 every weekend and also at it's lowest points when events were cancelled due to low numbers of 50 or less.
6. . As mentioned, the date was approved by our state Chair. That being said, we are certainly entitled to promote and advertise our event as we so choose. Our surrounding counties, multiple top level programs, and being right here on the NC border with Clubs like Darkhorse, Arrichion, and others, we too feel that our event will provide great opportunity and wrestling.
Finally... I think it wise to consider the overall picture where wrestling and people are concerned. I hear a lot about "getting those old guys out of SCUSAW", Forte getting some favoritism because he's on the board, or another coach being a jerk because he "demanded" a date or undermined another program. Certainly SCUSAW can use improvement, as could USAW, the SCHSL, and most other wrestling organizations. However there are good things that have been done and will continue to be. Be careful what ya wish for...ya might just get it.
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We might get what we ask for? What improvements have been made in the last 5 years in SCUSA wrestling?
If your numbers don't improve over a certain time span, do you keep your job? No!!! If they can't promote change to better the sport, then they should be the change!
Don't give me "they are working" behind the scenes. Keep ass kissing the leaders so you get the date you want.
If your numbers don't improve over a certain time span, do you keep your job? No!!! If they can't promote change to better the sport, then they should be the change!
Don't give me "they are working" behind the scenes. Keep ass kissing the leaders so you get the date you want.
Who, me?
I just don't think there should be two tournaments in the upstate at the same time. That hurts the numbers for both tournaments. You would think most people would agree. But then again, who cares.........
EagleHater... You seem to be an angry man. In the last couple of weeks I've seen ya hammerin down on multipe groups and people...SCHSL, officials, SCUSAW, Caveman/Gooddale, Forte, etc...
To quote Tony Montana, a man of understanding and a keen sense of business...." take it e-see!"
As far as "ass kissin the leaders", I would disagree. One will catch far more flies with sugar than with S***.
All joking aside...my point is that we need these people, regardless of how you might see them. SCUSAW has struggled in recent years, but it has made a recovery compared to several years ago.
What if they had not been here, traveling all over the state every weekend and running these events? Who would have been doing it? You? Who knows?
Coaches come off of a long winter season and perhaps may want a break. Younger guys have families and may not be able to travel all over the place.
Guys like Forte, Goodale, and others are good for us. Solid backgrounds with a lot to offer. What if they just pack it up and go back to Iowa or NJ? Good for Iowa and NJ...bad for SC.
As far as improvements made to SCUSAW over the past 5 years... I would say the greatest move forward was implementing online/track registration. Can more be done? Yes; but that would be the case with any team, program, coach, or wrestler.
As mentioned before...been around a long time...Have done the FS/GR, USAW, Fargo, SE/JR Regional thing for many years. I've seen the ups and downs...good and bad, as well as some SERIOUSLY good talent come through. 30 years ago, there were maybe 5 kids in the state who would even win a match at a national event like Fargo, NHSCA, Super 32, etc...
Safe to say that things have changed due to the continued involvement of coaches, parents, volunteers, etc... who have given their time and energy to our state and sport. Some were great, some were awful, and some in between. Regardless, they were there.
What if Koz had stayed in NY? The LaPrads in VA? Bells or Strobel moved away? Tom Bates non-support of SCUSAW? Jim Barnes went back to PA? Chris McCollum or Pat McCarthy get pissed and stop officiating? There was one years ago... Mac Carpenter who was damn good! Wish he were still around. I called many solid events and state tournaments with he and some others.
What if they all said. "to hell with it" and left?
There's an old George Jones song.... "who's gonna fill their shoes?" that I think is quite fitting in this conversation.
Hopefully you get my point. Relax and realize the grass ain't always greener on the other side.
And finally, to clear the air...FM coaches, staff, volunteers, parents, wrestlers, or the Russians did not steal anyone's tournament date or cut any grease slicked deals with anyone.
Deuces!
To quote Tony Montana, a man of understanding and a keen sense of business...." take it e-see!"
As far as "ass kissin the leaders", I would disagree. One will catch far more flies with sugar than with S***.
All joking aside...my point is that we need these people, regardless of how you might see them. SCUSAW has struggled in recent years, but it has made a recovery compared to several years ago.
What if they had not been here, traveling all over the state every weekend and running these events? Who would have been doing it? You? Who knows?
Coaches come off of a long winter season and perhaps may want a break. Younger guys have families and may not be able to travel all over the place.
Guys like Forte, Goodale, and others are good for us. Solid backgrounds with a lot to offer. What if they just pack it up and go back to Iowa or NJ? Good for Iowa and NJ...bad for SC.
As far as improvements made to SCUSAW over the past 5 years... I would say the greatest move forward was implementing online/track registration. Can more be done? Yes; but that would be the case with any team, program, coach, or wrestler.
As mentioned before...been around a long time...Have done the FS/GR, USAW, Fargo, SE/JR Regional thing for many years. I've seen the ups and downs...good and bad, as well as some SERIOUSLY good talent come through. 30 years ago, there were maybe 5 kids in the state who would even win a match at a national event like Fargo, NHSCA, Super 32, etc...
Safe to say that things have changed due to the continued involvement of coaches, parents, volunteers, etc... who have given their time and energy to our state and sport. Some were great, some were awful, and some in between. Regardless, they were there.
What if Koz had stayed in NY? The LaPrads in VA? Bells or Strobel moved away? Tom Bates non-support of SCUSAW? Jim Barnes went back to PA? Chris McCollum or Pat McCarthy get pissed and stop officiating? There was one years ago... Mac Carpenter who was damn good! Wish he were still around. I called many solid events and state tournaments with he and some others.
What if they all said. "to hell with it" and left?
There's an old George Jones song.... "who's gonna fill their shoes?" that I think is quite fitting in this conversation.
Hopefully you get my point. Relax and realize the grass ain't always greener on the other side.
And finally, to clear the air...FM coaches, staff, volunteers, parents, wrestlers, or the Russians did not steal anyone's tournament date or cut any grease slicked deals with anyone.
Deuces!
When I say old guys I mean the real old guys! I would love for them to move over and let Forte and Goodale run it.
I'm not hammering Goodale on the other post. I called BS on his comments about other clubs. Lots of others saw his post the same way. Doesn't change the fact he is the most capable person to bring this state together and grow SCUSA wrestling. He should do it without mentioning other clubs. My opinion.
Online registration was an improvement but they still allow on site which they said wouldn't be allowed. Nothing like sitting in a gym for hours waiting on wrestling to start so they can squeeze every dollar in.
FM guys run some of the best tournaments around. Start on time! Get done on time! No complaints there.
Only disagreement I have is two tournaments on the same weekend in the upstate. Trent is preaching getting the best kids in the state on the same mat. Not going to happen with 2/3/4 tournaments happening on the same weekend. You run a club. How many freestyle tournaments do you wrestle in NC? Why do you go to NC? Sure there will be excuses as to why but just like us going to Ga, it's because NC and GA FS/GR tournaments are ran better.
I'm not hammering Goodale on the other post. I called BS on his comments about other clubs. Lots of others saw his post the same way. Doesn't change the fact he is the most capable person to bring this state together and grow SCUSA wrestling. He should do it without mentioning other clubs. My opinion.
Online registration was an improvement but they still allow on site which they said wouldn't be allowed. Nothing like sitting in a gym for hours waiting on wrestling to start so they can squeeze every dollar in.
FM guys run some of the best tournaments around. Start on time! Get done on time! No complaints there.
Only disagreement I have is two tournaments on the same weekend in the upstate. Trent is preaching getting the best kids in the state on the same mat. Not going to happen with 2/3/4 tournaments happening on the same weekend. You run a club. How many freestyle tournaments do you wrestle in NC? Why do you go to NC? Sure there will be excuses as to why but just like us going to Ga, it's because NC and GA FS/GR tournaments are ran better.
I feel it is this type of mind set that continues to keep SC wrestling where it's at. I am referring to this logic that SC USAW isn't great... but be careful what you wish for... it could be worse.. train of thought.
I'm not sure it can get much worse.... I mean I suppose it could be extinct and that would be considered worse, but right now it needs allot of work. This isn't an attack on any individual, I know Donlick well as he coached me in HS , so I have allot of personal respect for the man.
However as I discussed in previous posts, there is a ton of room for improvement for SC USAW. The Fact that we are citing Trackwrestling/online registration as the biggest improvement over the past 5 years speaks volumes as to why we find ourselves where we do.
There is very little advertisement. There is very little presence, education, or brand marketing that comes from SC USAW. It's as if having a website and holding some tournaments is going to get it done. Well I think we all know it's not.
Again what's the short term and long term agenda/plan to get us where we need to be and help keep us there? What steps are going to be implemented to reach those goals.
Is SC USAW leadership actively working with SCYWA leadership to try and get more visibility to younger wrestlers? ( I have been openly critical in here of SCYWA's lack of involvement)
Right now many don't even know what FS/GR wrestling is in SC. Many don't know that their kids can participate and that there are tournaments in the offseason etc.
You can't expect to grow numbers/increase participation by merely existing. SC USAW needs to get organized and they need to aggressively educate and push their product. If SCYWA leadership won't cooperate, they need to consider alternatives that will get them the visibility they need with the younger wrestlers/parents. You have to treat it like a failing business, either you go out and compete for the business, or in this case, the kids/club/HS's participation or you fail/close the doors.
So again, the sort of is what it is mindset isn't going to improve SC wrestling.... its pretty much the approach that keeps us where we are.
I'm not sure it can get much worse.... I mean I suppose it could be extinct and that would be considered worse, but right now it needs allot of work. This isn't an attack on any individual, I know Donlick well as he coached me in HS , so I have allot of personal respect for the man.
However as I discussed in previous posts, there is a ton of room for improvement for SC USAW. The Fact that we are citing Trackwrestling/online registration as the biggest improvement over the past 5 years speaks volumes as to why we find ourselves where we do.
There is very little advertisement. There is very little presence, education, or brand marketing that comes from SC USAW. It's as if having a website and holding some tournaments is going to get it done. Well I think we all know it's not.
Again what's the short term and long term agenda/plan to get us where we need to be and help keep us there? What steps are going to be implemented to reach those goals.
Is SC USAW leadership actively working with SCYWA leadership to try and get more visibility to younger wrestlers? ( I have been openly critical in here of SCYWA's lack of involvement)
Right now many don't even know what FS/GR wrestling is in SC. Many don't know that their kids can participate and that there are tournaments in the offseason etc.
You can't expect to grow numbers/increase participation by merely existing. SC USAW needs to get organized and they need to aggressively educate and push their product. If SCYWA leadership won't cooperate, they need to consider alternatives that will get them the visibility they need with the younger wrestlers/parents. You have to treat it like a failing business, either you go out and compete for the business, or in this case, the kids/club/HS's participation or you fail/close the doors.
So again, the sort of is what it is mindset isn't going to improve SC wrestling.... its pretty much the approach that keeps us where we are.
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Jymf . I'm sure you know who I am since I sent you the email Tuesday. I'm not bashing the USA program over all. Those old guys have done a lot of good. I am questioning why you picked the 29th when other dates were offered to Fort Mill and that you turned down. When I talked with the state chair he assured me that you were only marketing in the ft.mill area. I'm not sure about the America and apple pie speech but I do recognize a political promise. There are 52 week ends in a year and you for some reason picked the one we were promised. I'm not sure how you got the numbers on the Ironman but you sir need to get YOUR facts straight. No it was not Madison Square Garden but it was also our Spring break week end. We choose to find a better weekend this year . The weekend of the 29th was canceled by another program last year. We planned a year in advance not 30 days ago. Again this was requested and granted at the annual meeting in August Not Late February with no one else involved but two fort mill assistant coaches one a ( board member ) and the state director. Nothing fishy there. I do believe the state chair was perhaps overwhelmed and did not handle this properly. I do not think that this would have happened at the annual meeting. If the Fort Mills of South Carolina can pick and choose at a whim then why do we have an annual meeting . Why do we schedule dates if there is no intention of honoring them . I called out Forte because he is both an assistant coach and running the FS program at Fort Mill High School. He is also a board member.. He was also at meeting in February with The state chair. And yes I want to expose what has happened here.
Points taken. I'll try and answer your concerns as briefly as possible, as I am in no way obligated to explain or defend the Fort Mill program's position on it. However; seeing that you seek answers... here goes..
Forte does not head up the FM FS/GR program. He is certainly a welcomed and critical part, but I have other coaches who have been on board and running the show for many years.
If I'm wrong on the numbers last year, then I'm not surprised. Been wrong before. My resource was Track, which is the tool of registration. Don't know what else to look at.
I chose the 29th because it was the only date that I could clear our gyms and avoid multiple spring breaks, etc.. and also look into interest from NC programs which has been strong.
Private meeting with FM Coaches and Donlick. Please..there were a few more important things going on at the time than to huddle behind the scenes and plot an attack on your event. Ron was there, and what better opportunity than to discuss during a break between matches.
Consider us exposed now. Our state director approved our event/date and we began the marketing and promotion for it.
In closing, being the good guy that I am, I'll be glad to let the folks up here on the SC/NC border know about THE IRONMAN!!! If they choose to drive by MillTown and pass us by, then so be it. It's a free market and folks are free to make those consumer based decisions.
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Just reread your email. There were actually two meetings one before and one after the state tournament. I to was at the state as were several board members . Perhaps a quorum could have been called . I would have certainly liked to be in on that discussion. I still don't know why you did not look at a calendar as do the rest of us. Why is your problem coming up this late in the year. Why weren't you at the annual meeting to set this date. Thank you for the offer to spread the word about the Ironman, and your demonstration of your arrogance about this situation. I have always supported your tournaments and always gone out of my way to thank you afterwards. I am truly sorry to be put in this situation and I find it hard to witness people whom I have admired and trusted over the years behave with such disregard for others. I'm afraid you have been EXPOSED as has others involved in this incident and that is perhaps the reason for your anger . I hope that your tournament is a success and that your kids do well. I have met several of them on the National team trips and all were great I don't think you are a bad person but your actions do effect others . I have kids who have nothing and without these fund raisers they are forced to miss such things as camps and the tournaments that we are discussing. Best regards, Doug Crowder
I doubt Donlick was "overwhelmed" during our conversation- let's give him a little bit more credit. USAW has a table at the state tournament every year and we have had discussions about SC USAW matters before- just like he has with the other coaches and board members who stop by the table. I'm flattered that you think I have that much pull in this state, but I don't- so let's just put all this super-secret meeting conspiracy talk to rest. This is not the first time the schedule has changed after the annual meeting and also not the first time SC USAW is running two tournaments on the same date.
Once again you've made an incorrect statement about me and my role with Fort Mill. First you started this thread by saying I should have set a date for Fort Mill at the annual meeting when you know I was still running Rhino Wrestling Club at the time. Any discussion I had with Fort Mill about joining their staff did not occur until the middle of October. I closed my club at the end of September and my talks with a school in the area to start a new wrestling program fell through in the beginning of October. Now you're saying I'm running Fort Mill's FS/GR program. Once again, flattered that you think that highly of me that I can just step into a program at Fort Mill and push aside coaches that have been involved with the program for over a decade, but just not true. The only aspect of the program that I was asked to have a leadership or head coach role is building our youth program back up.
And let's admit it- I was at the Ironman last year and the turnout was low and the numbers on trackwrestling are the numbers that your tournament had. There could have been several reasons, but FACTS are FACTS and you can look up the tournament on trackwrestling for yourself- those wrestlers who signed up at the door are also included on track's wrestler list.
You're talking about exposing people and getting our facts straight, but you seem to be the only one making false statements.
Mr Crowder, I am not angry. Sitting in pouring rain last night at my 11 year old's baseball game that should have been called, makes me angry. If you sense a tone of irritation in my responses it would be due to your multiple implications that the FM program is being shown favoritism, cutting deals, and bullying people around. Honestly, I am not as involved on the freestyle scene as much as I used to be, as I have spent my spring time in recent years raising up my three sons, which is far more important to me than a freestyle tournament. However; due to your implications of a shady operation as well as the nasty tone taken in your email and posts, let's just say I'm slightly annoyed. As previously mentioned, all you have to do is talk to me or any of my coaches and you will find some pretty easy people to work with. However; nasty remarks and false accusations will light a fire in most anyone with a competitive nature and care for their program. A favorite quote of mine by James Garfield states.."of course I deprecate war, but if brought to my door, the bringer will find me home." Again, just a civil approach would have been far more effective.
I'm not arrogant and I have great respect for others, in particular those who earn and deserve it. I admire your passion and care for your kids and program, but please keep in mind that you are not the only game in town, and I too have to take care of mine.
If you wish to continue this discussion please contact me via email and we can arrange a brief phone conversation.
Wow, and we wonder why South Carolina wrestling is not highly regarded nationally. C'mon guys, do better.
Sorry for the use of this thread .My original post was to clarify that the Ironman was not canceled nor had the date been moved. I am upset that such actions at the state tournament were going on with out regards for others. You sir picked the date and you also insisted on that date. I would have been glad to have sit in on that meeting. Still not sure why a Fort Mill representative was not at the Annual meeting . Why are you waiting until February to change the date. If you were so above board why not simply call me and ask if we could work something out. There is something wrong with SC USA WRESTLING and this is a fine example. I like your quote to bad that you didn't learn from it. I SIR DID NOT START THIS MESS , YOU DID. I'm pretty sure that you sent or at least blessed the meeting at the state with your coaches and the state chairman. Mine is not the only program in the state. That s why we went through the proper channels and had a vote