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SC Baseball Coaches Assoc Seeks Weak Pitch Count Rule

COHAZE

Five Star Prospect
Nov 12, 2004
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As I posted earlier, the NFHS is forcing the S.C. High School League to adopt a rule dealing with maximum pitch counts and required days of rest. As expected, the SCHSL is working with the S.C. Baseball Coaches Association to come up with a proposed rule. On Monday, the SCBCA voted to endorse a weak rule that would provide limited protection to players, while minimizing any inconvenience to coaches.

As you may know, USA Baseball and MLB have come out with recommended guidelines to cover this issue. See www.pitchsmart.org. The Pitch Smart Guidelines provide that 17 and 18 year olds may not throw more than 105 pitches in a game. They also provide that 15 and 16 year olds may not throw more than 95 pitches in a game.

Unfortunately, the SCBCA has chosen to ignore the advice of the best medical minds on the planet. If adopted by the SCHSL, the SCBCA proposal would allow ALL varsity pitchers to throw up to 120 pitches in a game, regardless of whether they were 15 or 18. Even worse, the 120 is not exactly a hard limit. My understanding is that if a pitcher hits 120 during an at bat, he could complete that at bat before being removed. So, you will still see counts in the low-mid 120’s.

The Pitch Smart Guidelines also require certain mandatory calendar days of rest, depending on the number of pitches thrown in a game. I have not seen the SCBCA proposal regarding mandatory rest. It is my understanding that they are okay with the Pitch Smart rules regarding rest. If true, that part is encouraging. But, as we saw in another thread, people have different ways of defining a “day of rest.”

I am not saying the Pitch Smart Guidelines are perfect. But, they represent the opinions of the best medical professionals we have. These are the guys who treat the injuries caused by overuse. It would seem to me that their recommendations should only be ignored if there is compelling evidence to the contrary.

Do the SCBCA and SCHSL have compelling evidence or reasons for ignoring the guidelines? Of course not. I challenge everyone within SCBCA and SCHSL to give me one good reason how these more liberal pitch count limits benefit players.

If you took a survey of HS coaches, most would probably tell you that 95% of the time (or more) their pitchers throw less than 105 pitches in a game. Some would be exaggerating, but that’s still what they would say. But, let’s assume they’re telling the truth. That means that setting the upper limit at 105 will have no impact on 95% (or more) of their games! So, why then, do we need an upper limit of 120+?

Higher pitch counts and fewer days of rest benefit coaches, not players. There are a lot of good HS coaches in SC. But, let’s face it, some of these guys just want to ride their stud pitchers as long as possible. I have seen it too many times. It’s all about winning games to them. Others are just plain lazy. Pitch counts and mandatory rest would require some coaches to spend a lot more time developing pitchers. The good coaches would quickly adapt to reasonable rules, like the Pitch Smart Guidelines, if they haven't already. Others would rather take the easy route of higher pitch counts.

Unfortunately, SCHSL and SCBCA insist on doing this all behind closed doors. I have encouraged SCHSL to open the process to parents and the media. Thus far, they have declined to do so. Wouldn’t you like to know how your son’s coach voted on this issue? I know I would. But, they’re going to do everything they can to avoid this information becoming public.

Despite the SCBCA’s vote, this issue is not over. The SCHSL must still come up with a final proposal, run it by their Medical Committee, and submit it to their executive committee for a final vote. Hopefully, somewhere along the way someone will take a stronger stand to protect young arms. These are still youth sports folks. We should value development more than winning.
 
They should be lenient with our knuckleballer. Never throws hard, about 65 mph, and can throw any number of pitches comfortably. More kids should master the pitch and throw complete games no matter how many pitches. The scientists and doctors don't know everything. Books have been written on their mistakes but I still go to the docs. No choice.
 
I don't know of any research that backs up Shaka's comments, but I do know that the doctors and scientists that have spent countless hours and millions of dollars know more than anyone else when it comes to this topic. And just as importantly don't have a "dog in the fight" so they are absolutely objective when it comes to their research and development. Shaka? Who are you going to believe when it comes time to protect your son/grandson/nephew? A coach whose job depends on winning, or a medical professional that objectively collects data and provides an unbiased opinion of that data based on FACTS? Please provide the books that you have that "have been written on their mistakes" so I can read them. I have read volumes of literature/research that substantiates their factual findings, so I'd like to compare your references with theirs. Their references include the numerous offerings for research from the following physician sources:

http://www.scimagojr.com/journalrank.php?category=2732

Not to mention the Journal of Physical Therapy, the Journal of Orthopedic and Sports Physical Therapy, The Journal of Athletic Training, Sports Health, The North American Journal of Sports Medicine, and on and on and on............

Cohaze nailed it 100% with this post. Implementing the Pitch Smart initiative guidelines are a great step in the right direction. I don't know why the NFHS didn't just mandate that all schools across the county use them. If the leaders of USA Baseball, MLB, and the leading sports medicine physician/surgeon MD James Andrews and his staff at the American Sports Medicine Institute in Birmingham have taken all this time, money, and effort to provide guidance, why on earth would anyone with half a brain question why they have done this? Remember, the fact that a physician that makes his living doing corrective surgery is trying to DECREASE the number of surgeries he does should speak volumes. Who else are you going to listen to? Someone please tell me who has more knowledge on this topic.

***Let's not forget that the last time regulations were imposed by the individual states.

California imposed this "limit":

30 outs and/or three appearances in a calendar week through the season. No joke. That's what it says.

Or what about this gem from the great state of Illinois:

A player may not pitch more than nine innings in any one day, except, if a pitcher is pitching in the game when the score is tied at the end of the regulation period of play, the pitcher shall be permitted to continue pitching until he is relieved or the conclusion of the game,whichever occurs first. You can't make this stuff up.

Better yet look at this absolute idiocy from Louisiana:

The number of innings a pitcher may pitch during a calendar week (Sunday-Saturday)
shall be determined by the principal.
----------> That's a real "policy" folks. In writing. By "educated" people.

Here is the link to the "rules" imposed by each individual state so you can read the ABSOLUTELY STUPID approach some states have to protecting their youth.

http://www.infosports.com/scorekeeper/images/pitlimitsa.pdf

Believe me....it is worth the read. It would be laughable if it wasn't so frightening. And notice the date on the submission of 2012. This most recent attempt this summer to limit the foolishness won't be addressed again anytime soon so how about we get it right the first time.

As long as everyone is playing by the same rules, where is the problem here? Less injury, longer careers, happier kids, more kids to be developed early on as pitchers, etc. Coaches may not like it at first, and they may have to actually be vocal in their local youth leagues so more pitchers are developed at an early age, but they will adapt. Remember the uproar when they MADE you wear a seatbelt? Used to it now aren't you? Why did they make you put the seat belt on? Research and education PROVED you are safer in that belt.

I would think coaches would be fine with it as long as every team has to follow the same policy. Just like a football coach needs a certified athletic trainer on his sideline so he doesn't have to decide whether a kid is healthy to return to the game, stricter guidelines would actually stop a coach from that urge to send a kid back into the game when he shouldn't.

Placing the Pitch Smart policy into effect for the high school league will also assist in educating parents and athletes so that they will carry that knowledge to their travel teams and legion teams as well. Education is a powerful tool. Let's use the knowledge we have been provided.
 
One thing that bothers me with that specifically baseball wise is now your stats are public. I know a lot of coaches for baseball went to game changer because only the parents or players could see it now the opposing team.

Well how does that give teams advantages:

Can see who steals and doesn't.
Who strikes out a lot and who walks a lot
What pitchers walk a lot of better-Coaches tell there players to take more.
Who bunts a lot.
Defensive adjustments you can not see which kids have power and don't.

I know games still have to be played on the field but I think this can help and hurt teams.

The less info the opposing coach knows the better
 
Skools,

Two points:
1.From what I have seen, HS coaches already share information with their coaching buddies. It's the new guy that doesn't have the connections in the coaching community that's at the biggest disadvantage. This will help level the playing field.

2. Trying to predict what a HS kid will do in a given game, based on what he did in a prior game, is still a bit of a crap shoot. Certainly not as accurate as with college and professional players.

Some coaches will use this information to shoot themselves in the foot. As soon as a HS coach gets cute and positions his infielders for a batter to pull (based on his past history), he's gonna go backside. HS baseball is not rocket science. Kids are too unpredictable.

And no matter how much information you give them, some coaches are still gonna do stupid stuff. E.G. throwing offspeed to the kid who can't get around on a fastball to save his life.

But, you're right about one things. It's definitely gonna be different. Now we'll see who can coach pitchers and who can't.
 
I personally believe the 120 limit is too high as well. The biggest thing about pitcher's arms are that a lot of the damage has occurred from over use before they even get to the high school level. I would like to also have a dead period for baseball players from September through November. Let kids arms rest with no competitive throwing. I know that will never happen but I feel the constant throwing year round does more damage than individual outings. My preference for pitch counts in high school and required days rest:
Varsity Pitcher
0-20 (0 days rest required)
21-40 (1 day rest)
41-60 (2 days rest)
61-75 (3 days rest)
76-90 (4 days rest)
91-105 (5 days rest)
Pitcher must come out at 105

JV Pitcher
0-20 (1 day rest)
21-40 (2 days rest)
41-60 (3 days rest)
61-75 (4 days rest)
JV pitcher should not go over 75 pitches
 
I like your numbers for Varsity pitchers, a lot. I especially like the 20 pitch limit in order to throw again the next day. This is one of the issues that I have with Pitch Smart, which sets a 30 pitch limit. That's too many. I have heard that the final SCHSL rule will set a limit of 30. But, it could have been worse. Some HS coaches wanted a higher limit.

I also like requiring 5 days of rest for kids at the top end of the limit. I have HEARD that the SCHSL rule will be similar. If so, that's a point in their favor. We should find out next week.

I still think that it makes no sense to treat 16 year olds the same as 18 year olds. It is not uncommon to see 9th graders (age 15-16) starting on varsity. I saw one throw 100+ pitches last year. That's too many. As Pitch Smart recommends, 15-16 year olds should have a lower limit than 17-18's.

I do like the cap of 75 for JV pitchers. I am also hearing that the SCHSL rule will be similar. However, it makes no sense for a 15-16 year old on the varsity to be allowed to throw 100+ while limiting a 15-16 year old on the JV team to 75.

I agree completely with the idea of a shut down period from September through November. Dr. Andrews' and ASMI have been recommending that for 15 years. That's exactly what we did when my kid was coming through (except for 1 year). The current SCHSL rules dealing with fall practice are idiotic. There's really not much way to shut down a kid without pissing off his HS coach.
 
Would be extremely difficult for the schsl to monitor the pitch counts by age. With baseball, the problem is everything the players do outside of the high school setting. This travel team, private lessons, this workout program, etc. The parents are the only ones that can truly know how much their kid is playing and throwing and many are blinded by chasing a scholarship that is peanuts compared to the actual cost of playing college baseball. Most of the arm problems began when kids started playing year round but no one is addressing the problem.
 
I don't buy the difficulty to monitor argument. Coaches are already going to have to call, text, or e-mail pitch counts in after every game. SCHSL (or MaxPreps) will maintain a database. You could easily divide kids into 3 categories:
A-15 year olds and 16 year olds who will not hit 17 during the season.
B-16 year olds who will hit 17 during the season. These will be the ones you have to keep an eye on.
C-17 and 18 year olds.

You could actually reduce it to 2 categories by amending the rule to say that if you turn 17 during the season (or during the first half of the season) you are still limited to the limit allowed for 15-16's. All you need is a cutoff date, like every youth organization uses to determine player eligibility. Tracking two categories would be a very minor inconvenience for everyone involved, and would benefit the younger pitchers a great deal.

I agree with the rest of your comments.
 
Cohaze I know I talked about this before. Will the 5 rest day's be like how the major leagues do it?

Example: Pitcher throws 100 pitches Monday and can throw again on Saturday

OR
Pitcher throws 100 pitches Monday and can throw again on Sunday
 
I don't know for sure, but I am hearing that it will be calendar days. Under your example, the pitcher would not be eligible again until Sunday. But, we should know for sure by this Friday.

Cohaze I know I talked about this before. Will the 5 rest day's be like how the major leagues do it?

Example: Pitcher throws 100 pitches Monday and can throw again on Saturday

OR
Pitcher throws 100 pitches Monday and can throw again on Sunday
 
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