State Limits On Pitch Counts--Colorado Takes First Step

[COHAZE]

Rest days will be determined by the number of pitches thrown in a game:

•For one to 35 pitches, no days off are required.

• For 36 to 60 pitches, one day of rest is required.

• For 61 to 85 pitches, two days are required.

• If a pitcher throws 86 to 110 times in a game, he's required to take three days off.

• The maximum amount of pitches allowed is 110.

- See more at: http://www.coachad.com/pages/Breaking-News---Colorado-placing-limits-on-high-school-pitchers.php#sthash.U15vZx2n.dpuf

 

[LeftyTosser]

It's about time somebody took a stance. Although I wish it was a high school league or NFHS rather than a government agency, as long as someone is trying to help protect these guys. Far too many high school coaches will throw a guy until his arm falls off. I saw a kid throw 156 in a game two years ago and was told he came back two days later and threw again. That is barbaric. Even if the kids isn't going to pitch past high school, he will still need his arm to be healthy.

 

[PercyPeabody]

Middle schools have pitch count. No more than 80 in one day and 120 in a 7 day period. Coaches are required to document both teams pitchers in scorebook.

 

[LeftyTosser]

Percy, that is a Greenville County rule not SCHSL from what I understand.

 

[COHAZE]

Lefty, we both know the SC High School League is not going to do anything unless multiple tragedies occur AND they get a lot of bad press. NFHS is too busy trying to appease all 50 states to do anything.

I don't care who does it, it's time for change. There have been way too many S.C. kids whose arms have abused by HS (and Legion and Travel)coaches.

 

[CM3]

This does not need to be a rule, travel ball coaches and high school coaches need to work together not against each other. Fall travel, if a kid is going to high school workouts he should be excused from fall practice, work together on when the arm is shut down. Travel is a big deal to the parents, there is no stopping it now, but needs some fixing and needs more educated people at the helm. If a kid throws 7 innings in game 1 he doesn't need to go to SS game 2. Stop keeping 10-11 kids on these "showcase" teams. Don't get me wrong there are a lot of good programs out there, that do it the right way, but the mom and pop crap needs to go along with anyone under the age of 12 playing it, kids are getting burnt out and disinterested in the process of furthering their game. It will only get worse, poor mechanics, lack of coaching, overuse, no rest, and no time for the weight room results in hurt arms. Done ranting.

 

[LeftyTosser]

CM3, while most of us fully understand that "travel" coaches and school coaches should work together, the reality is that it won't happen except in smaller communities. As long as "travel" programs continue to tell parents about the college scouts that are supposed to be attending tournaments to watch their kids, the parents will continue to believe them. Let's face facts, the last time a college coach came to watch a 12&U tournament was when his kid was playing!
I disagree with the idea that the tournament directors aren't smart. For the most part the ones I have run into are very smart. They are just far more interested in money than saving arms and promoting kids playing the game. They want as many teams as possible instead of quality teams. If the rules were made to promote healthy competition and player development, there would be less events with less teams and LESS MONEY!
I think the high school leagues need to be the voice of sound judgement, but I'm not sure that will happen either. I do like the pitch count rule in theory. At least for the 3-4 months of school ball the players won't be overthrowing. In our area most of the school coaches limit the amount of outside ball the players can do during the school season, which I think is a great idea. Just because parents want to abuse their kids by playing on multiple teams during the rest of the year doesn't mean the HS coach should follow suit.

In a perfect world the travel programs would be supervised by the HS coaches and limits would be set for players. But in a perfect world the HS coaches would be qualified to coach also, and we all know many that are not qualified to run a tee ball team. Far too many are teachers that know just enough about the sport to be dangerous.

 

[COHAZE]

Lefty, you're getting more cynical (or is it sensible) in your old age. Not that I disagree with you. It is truly all about the money. Fifteen years ago there was AAU sponsoring tournaments. Then USSSA showed up to divide the pie. Then some of the better travel teams figured out that they could make some extra money by cutting out the middlemen and sponsoring their own tournaments. Things have mushroomed from there. There are probably 10 different organizations/individuals sponsoring tournaments in the upstate alone. The softball people are now doing baseball tournaments. Guys that used to be partnered with some of the bigger groups have splintered off to start their own money making ventures. Upward Stars is getting in on the act with plans to build baseball fields, field travel teams, and sponsor tournaments. They tried to field teams this year, but so far their efforts have fizzled. Heck, there are even third rate travel teams holding their own tournaments. And they're doing it for one reason, MONEY.

Some of these groups are even billing themselves as "non-profits." Of course, the NFL is a non-profit, and Roger Goodell makes 30 million a year. Don't let the non-profit label fool you.

It is not unusual to have 3 or more tournaments going in this area on the same weekend. You can imagine what the talent level is like at the second and third tier tournaments. Parents are paying a lot of money for kids to face rec ball level competition.

Warning to parents! If your kid's travel coach initially promises that you will play in some big tournaments, but you end up playing at some scrub tournament that he put together to make money, it is time to cut and run.

Lefty is right. Most of these guys don't give a rats behind about pitchers' arms. Take a look at their pitching restrictions (if they have any) if you don't believe me.

 

[LeftyTosser]

Cohaze, you are right. Cynical and sensible are two of my favorite things.

 

[JB_a_Rivals]

COHAZE and Lefty,
Could you guys email me at scvarsity@sc.rr.com? I'd like to pick your brains on this and do a story on travel ball in my column for The State.

Thanks.

 

[Skools]

As a current senior legion coach in the upstate I can't tell you how many parents regret spending thousands of dollars for their kid not to play In college and wish they just played legion and used that money to pay for there kids tuition.

 

[LeftyTosser]

OK, I'll bite. Skools, exactly what is the pitch limit rule for Legion?

 

[carolinacombat]

I'm glad I caught this thread. Pitch limits and potential injuries are a touchy subject for many. I agree it's better to err on the side of caution, especially if you're unsure what you're doing. I see there are people still coming here to pin arm injuries solely on travel ball(those evil travel teams). As if 3-5 nine inning legion games per week doesn't stress arms, and some of those guys throwing CG's. HS coaches have their player throw 30 pitch pens only to have them throw 3x that much in the game. All levels should strive for continuous education on this subject because it's ever evolving with new studies and research.

Now obviously there are coaches at both levels who know developmentally appropriate ways to build pitchers up, but it's more than just a number of pitches. Any parent can hold a pitch count clicker, and many do. Demonizing travel ball when it actually gives kids an opportunity to prehab and rehab appropriately throughout the week as well as being able to make sure you have enough arms to balance the work load is just short sighted or stubborn.

We've taught players how to pitch from the ground up, closely monitored, measured everything...only to have a HS coach put a saddle on him to where he appeared in almost every game his senior year. Another guy came to us low 80's, and we showed him a few things, jumped to 90-91 and went D1 after we let him rest and restricted his pitch count. There's a kid right now that's going to be the ace on a 4a team and he threw one inning for us all summer in a game where we threw 7 different pitchers in 7 innings. Why? Well because he doesn't want to pitch that much, he'd rather not be put in that situation, especially when he doesn't want to pitch in college.

Let's not act as if travel ball invented arm injuries. We actually tell kids to go play other sports around our spring/summer seasons. Several return with concussions from football (much more serious than any arm injury), or other injuries that hurt their stock in baseball. There's good/bad HS, legion, and travel. Educate yourself and the player the best you can so you can sleep with a clear conscience. I know I do.

 

[LeftyTosser]

combat, for every 1 of us that try to teach kids how to manage their arms, there are 10 that are the opposite. I coach both school and travel ball and will guarantee you that I see 10 times as many "ride a guy" coaches in travel ball than in school ball. If travel coaches or tournament directors truly gave a crap about a pitcher and his arm, then there wouldn't be the ridiculous inning rules for pitching where a kid can throw 3 or 4 innings on Sat. (no matter how many pitches) and then come back and throw 3 or 4 innings on Sunday (no matter how many pitches).

You are absolutely right that travel ball didn't invent arm injuries, but statistics show that arm injuries shot through the roof when travel ball became more the norm. Dr. Andrews, which all of us have become far too familiar with over the past 10 years, even said the same with the number of patients he sees. His number of Tommy John surgeries in players under 18 has gone crazy over the past 10 years due to over use.

This isn't just a travel ball issue. It is a baseball issue and more specifically a youth baseball issue. Far too many groups are trying to pull players, parents and coaches in too many directions and for too large a portion of the year. Kids should take time to play as many sports as possible and yet parents think their kid will be left behind if they aren't playing year round. The saddest part is that it is the group that should be helping protect these young people that are telling them to play year round. That group is us coaches.

 

[COHAZE]

You travel ball guys can be awfully sensitive at times. ;-) I love the line about "Demonizing travel ball when it actually gives kids an opportunity to prehab and rehab..." First of all, although YOU may encourage prehab and rehab, that doesn't mean that the Travel Ball Industry as a whole does. In fact we both know that is not the case. I spend a little time working with kids who play for "elite" travel teams. Every time I break out the J-Bands with a new kid he gets the deer in the headlights look. If you're doing this as a matter of course with your kids, I applaud you. But, you're in the minority of travel (and HS and Legion) coaches if you are.

You also mentioned people trying to pin arm injuries "solely on travel." I must have missed that. Or, it must have been in another thread. Nobody here (in this thread) is saying that.

This thread started out focused primarily on pitch counts in HS, but I made it clear, as did others, that this issue extends to Legion and Travel as well. I think one person also suggested that the parents also bear some responsibility, which they certainly do. I don't consider that "demonizing" travel.

Yeah, Lefty and I were on the Tournament Sponsors/Promoters pretty good because they are the ones that set the rules for travel tournaments. It would be a lot easier for them to change their rules than it would be to get Legion and HS rules changed. But, it's not in their financial best interests to do so.

Listen, I have suspected for a long time that you are one of the Good Guys. I know you're not going to stand up here and defend tournament rules that allow a 12 year old to throw 4 innings and unlimited pitches on Friday night, followed by 6 innings and unlimited pitches on Saturday. I don't know you, but I am positive that you don't think that is a good rule. Rather than defend the Travel Ball Industry as a whole, why not speak out against stupid rules like that? Pretending there are no problems with Travel, i.e. glorifying it as panacea, is just as bad as "demonizing" it.

Originally posted by carolinacombat:
I'm glad I caught this thread. Pitch limits and potential injuries are a touchy subject for many. I agree it's better to err on the side of caution, especially if you're unsure what you're doing. I see there are people still coming here to pin arm injuries solely on travel ball(those evil travel teams). As if 3-5 nine inning legion games per week doesn't stress arms, and some of those guys throwing CG's. HS coaches have their player throw 30 pitch pens only to have them throw 3x that much in the game. All levels should strive for continuous education on this subject because it's ever evolving with new studies and research.

Now obviously there are coaches at both levels who know developmentally appropriate ways to build pitchers up, but it's more than just a number of pitches. Any parent can hold a pitch count clicker, and many do. Demonizing travel ball when it actually gives kids an opportunity to prehab and rehab appropriately throughout the week as well as being able to make sure you have enough arms to balance the work load is just short sighted or stubborn.

We've taught players how to pitch from the ground up, closely monitored, measured everything...only to have a HS coach put a saddle on him to where he appeared in almost every game his senior year. Another guy came to us low 80's, and we showed him a few things, jumped to 90-91 and went D1 after we let him rest and restricted his pitch count. There's a kid right now that's going to be the ace on a 4a team and he threw one inning for us all summer in a game where we threw 7 different pitchers in 7 innings. Why? Well because he doesn't want to pitch that much, he'd rather not be put in that situation, especially when he doesn't want to pitch in college.

Let's not act as if travel ball invented arm injuries. We actually tell kids to go play other sports around our spring/summer seasons. Several return with concussions from football (much more serious than any arm injury), or other injuries that hurt their stock in baseball. There's good/bad HS, legion, and travel. Educate yourself and the player the best you can so you can sleep with a clear conscience. I know I do.

This post was edited on 2/27 9:35 AM by COHAZE

 

[carolinacombat]

FWIW when there is an honest pitch count thread and then points get brought up that include "travel ball has no pitch limits" and "it's all about the money" it doesn't exactly paint a friendly or clear picture. It seems like making these generalizations has been a heated discussion before. Just like you don't defend all of legion or HS ball I don't defend all of travel...etc, etc. I've been successful at working with many coaches, others egos get in the way when you show them hard evidence and they still refute it. The biggest problem in baseball is "qualified" coaches giving out bad information.

When it all boils down, you are either part of the problem or part of the solution. If you don't do your own homework and instead just rely on anecdotal evidence that's when you can get in trouble and have to backtrack. To the original point of whether the high school league will ever do anything...well maybe after most of the other states have and SC is backed in to a corner, or maybe when they get sued. IMHO a lawsuit would be quicker than waiting on the high school league. Maybe you've noticed SCISA teams in SC wearing the face cages on their helmets (which I hate), but they do it because they got sued. SC is not exactly on the cutting edge when it comes to being progressive or forward thinking, or even common sense sometimes.

What I like about showcase/travel (and I'm still confused as to how we jump to talking about 12u usssa type teams lumped in with HS, showcase, and legion) is that I can make sure I have enough arms. I can have everyone throw one inning if I want. I can break it up to 3-2-2, etc. I don't have to (or need to) put a saddle on someone who plans to play college ball.

Other Ideas:
I do agree that some travel groups need to be stripped of their non-profit status, but I won't hold my breath. The NFL front office got their status through lobbyists, it was specifically written for the nfl. Don't hold your breath on that one changing either.

I think everyone should have to pitch until they are playing 13u. No more than 2 innings or 45 pitches per tournament. That would save everyone's arm. According to Dr.Tom House (who works with Andrews through ASMI) this is the age that is the peak time to develop arm speed to throw at higher velocities later in their playing career. Some would say it's not right to tell people what to do, but this is more for development than precaution, the side effect would be less arm injuries(maybe?).

I understand the hypothesis (and it is a hypothesis) that arm injuries have gone up since the rise of travel ball. What I would say to that is correlation does not imply causation. However, I'm not even sure of how strong the correlation is...do you have some evidence or data? I'm being sincere in that I'd like to see it. Reason being is that we only have partial data of when we actually started tracking arm injuries. Back in the day guys arms would hang/pop/tingle and they would just pitch through it, or hang up their spikes.

What I do know is that the average Americans weight has gone up quite a bit, heavier pitchers cause more ground force production in the delivery, which causes higher velocities in pitchers, and we also know that higher velocity pitchers are more abundant than ever and the higher the velocity the more stress you put on the arm which leads to greater risk for injury. All of this is peer reviewed research.

There is also a new study if you read Collegiate Baseball News linking arm injuries to weight lifting (football workouts much anyone?).

And the painfully obvious hypothesis is that kids are just too sedentary (smart phones, tablets, games, tv) these days to prepare themselves to pitch competitively.

Also, look at the Japanese studies on pitchers, how do they throw exponentially more pitches, and get hurt less? Yet when they come to the states they get on restrictive programs and they tear up their arms or lose velocity. Really do yourself a favor and look at the research, it's interesting. (BTW I do not advocate trying this kids - consult a doctor, etc cough cough).

Would you take a HS guy that squats 300 5 times 2 or 3 times a week and then take him to a competition where you're asking him to rep 300 15-20 times? I'd think not.

So there are a multitude of factors. When I was coming up 90mph was the big number, now it's 100mph. Training and research has evolved. Everyone has an angle or perspective. Not to undermine pitch counts, but I believe a bigger issue than pitch counts is proper pitcher training and routines.

I will always go with research and data versus anecdotal evidence, however.

What are your solutions?

 

[LeftyTosser]

combat, I don't blame all travel coaches any more than I blame all high school coaches. My biggest issue is that the two seldom work together for the benefit of the player. I DO think that 80% of travel coaches are more interested in their kid than they are in other players. I also believe that 90% of all travel coaches need more education on how to help kids protect their arms. I also believe that there should be a national training program that coaches could get that education and be certified showing that they are attempting to help make good decisions for players. I DON'T believe that this education and certification should cost coaches an arm and a leg to take, but that it should be MANDATORY to be able to coach in high school, travel teams, Legion or any other group where kids arms are at risk.

Now before you think I am picking on travel ball, please understand I feel the same way about high school coaches or Legion coaches or Little League coaches. It's not a matter of where kids are playing, there needs to be an education process in place for those that are supposed to be teaching these kids. My biggest issues with travel ball are that 1.) The lack of actual tangible pitching limit regulations that help protect arms. 2.) The fact that tournament directors (95%) are interested strictly in getting as many teams as possible to play to increase their income. It's not about the players or the teams, it is all about the dollars.

By the way, I have read the reports on the players from Japan and how many pitches they throw. I have a tendency to trust Dr. Andrews and hundreds of other medical professionals and their experience. I believe that statistics can be used to prove anything we want to prove. The fact of the matter is that there are far more arm injuries around the world for baseball pitchers than at any other point in time in history. For every 1 Japanese player that can throw tons of pitches in a year without damage there are hundreds of players that cannot. Those are statistics that cannot be questioned. This subject has been written about by folks far smarter than I am and I believe what they write.

 

[BulldogZ91]

Glad I stumbled upon this thread. I have a 9 yr old boy that I call my "seasonal" player. Whatever sport is going at the time he's playing it. I have steered clear of committing to just one sport like many of his friends. That being said, he likes to pitch. Last season was his first time pitching and he did ok for his first season. How should I get him ready to pitch with being careful not to over do it? What kind of routine or warm ups/conditioning do you guys suggest? He is like any boy he wants to jump out there and just start slinging away! Help!
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[LeftyTosser]

Bulldog, the best thing a parent can do for their child when it comes to sports is to monitor them to make sure of 3 things: 1.) Are they having fun? 2.) Work with them on proper mechanics when they are young. Are they staying on top and behind the ball when throwing. AND 3.) Make sure they are not overused. Go to youtube and watch any of Alan Jaeger's programs on warming up and throwing. Alan is the man when it comes to throwing and mechanics.

 

[BulldogZ91]

Thanks Lefty, really appreciate the tips! I'm def gonna check out the mechanics. I pitched a little in HS and I've worked with him as much as I can but I'm no expert!
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