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State Tournament Horror Stories

COHAZE

Five Star Prospect
Nov 12, 2004
1,000
25
48
Pitcher 1 throws 155 pitches in Sunday's game.

Pitcher 2, same team as Pitcher 1, throws 150+ pitches in Monday's game.

As is now customary, the infamous State Committee is also playing fast and loose with the schedule to suit its own ends. But, that's a different story.

When are you people going to wake up? These pitch counts are absurd. You are driving the Legion program into the dirt. You are gambling young arms for a few meaningless wins. My son played 4 years of Legion. He was lucky. He had three excellent coaches who would never have risked his health. (And one who did). As much as I love Legion, there is no way I would let him play for some of these clowns.

Legion is dependent on future college players. Sooner or later college coaches are going to start telling their kids to not play Legion. If Legion does not clean up it's act, it will soon fade away. Hopefully, the new Pitch Smart initiative founded by MLB and Dr. Andrews' group will embarrass organizations like Legion and USSSA enough that they will be forced to change.

In fairness, there are some very good Legion programs out there that would NEVER risk a kids health like this. I applaud those coaches for doing the right thing. But, there are way too many clowns in Legion, and HS, and travel, that don't give a rat's behind about arm health. These people need to be forced into the 21st century.
 
I don't think the problem is throwing 155 pitches in a game that is ruining the kids arms. I think it is the amount of days rest in between outings that is hurting the kids arms (watch what I do with this in a minute). In Legion ball, if a kid throws 155 pitches in a game then if he gets his 4 days rest with proper training and rest in between starts or outings then he will be good to go. 155 pitches over 9 innings is an average of 17 pitches an inning, that is a lot of pitches I'm not disagreeing but its not terribly high...before all of this arm trouble, kids threw that many pitches all the time.

Here is where arm problems started, is when travel ball started. You see in travel ball a kid throws 70 pitches on Saturday in 3 or 4 innings but the coach wants to save him for Sunday and he comes back and throws another 70 pitches....that is what is taking the toll on these kids arms....TRAVEL BALL COACHES not legion coaches. Even if they go to a week long tournament, travel ball teams don't carry pitchers or don't want their position players pitching as much so they may pitch a kid on a Monday and let him throw 110 pitches then bring him back on Thursday or Friday and throw another 110 then bring him back for Saturday or Sunday for the championship to throw 50 pitches.

Evaluate both, neither is right but if the legion ball kid gets enough rest in between outings then he will be fine.
 
Dueces, you are right about one thing: neither is right. Neither of the two scenarios you presented are in the best interest of the player or his long term ability. Throwing a baseball is a very unnatural act. Throwing 130+ pitches in one outing is extremely unnatural. It doesn't matter how much rest the arm gets, the high number of pitches has already done damage. If throwing 130 + pitches in a game was OK, wouldn't we see pros doing it? Name the last time you saw a pro from any team at any level throw that many pitches. In 2014 the MLB average number of pitchers per game was 145. the average number of pitchers per game was 3. For 2015 the highest pitch counts per start for MLB pitchers is between 104 - 108 pitches per game.

I am certainly not defending the travel coach that is reckless enough to throw a kid on Sat. and Sun. no matter how high his pitch count. But at the same time, a legion coach that continually throws pitchers 100+ pitches twice a week or even every 5 days is not doing his kids any favors either. The overall lack of education in pitching mechanics, warm up and cool down technique, spotting change in mechanics while pitchers are on the mound plus coaches & parents thinking that every kid has a shot at the pros, all of these combine to create issues for pitching and catcher arms.
 
155 pitches is inexcusable under any scenario. Dr. Andrews and the American Sports Medicine Institute recommend a max of 95 for 15-16 year olds and a max of 105 for 17-18 year olds. There is no I'll Give Him Extra Rest Exception. Nor is there a Big Strong Kid Exception (another common excuse).

You don't see Major Leaguers (or minor leaguers) throw 155 pitches in a game. You very rarely see it in a college game. MLB and College players are fully grown. And they have the best medical care and training available. It's not okay for them to throw 155 pitches, but it is for a physically immature 16-17 year old kid? Sorry, but I gotta call BS on that. Frankly, I base my opinions on the medical experts' opinions. But, forget the experts. Common sense should tell you that these kids shouldn't be throwing as much as professionals. But, for some reason, we see HS kids throwing far more than professionals, on a regular basis. There is something wrong with this picture.

Having said that, are those numbers etched in stone? No. Andrews has said in the past that there should be a little leeway there, in BOTH directions. But, not 40-50 pitches of leeway.

You do raise an interesting point about pitches per inning. It is very common for HS and younger kids to have high pitch innings. Andrews has said in the past that this should also be taken into consideration. If a kid throws over approx. 25 pitches (can't remember the exact number) in an inning, every subsequent pitch should count double. Why? Because the kid is pitching while fatigued. And I don't care who he is, a HS kid who throws 25 pitches in an inning is fatigued. According to my source, the kid who threw 155 pitches also threw 37 pitches in the first inning alone. While his actual count was 155, his effective count was much higher. This is very common in HS and Legion ball.

I do agree with you on the rest issue. You see lots of abuse there in travel, HS, and Legion. It is very common for a HS pitcher to start one game and close a second game later in the week. This is a true story that happened in Spartanburg County a couple of years ago. A local HS kid comes on in relief and throws 130 pitches in 4 1/3 or 4/ 2/3 innings. An extremely high pitch count for less than 5 innings work, but because of control issues, this is the way this kid typically throws. The VERY NEXT DAY his coach brings back in to close. Of course, I think that was the last time he pitched that year.
 
Once the warm up and pick off throws are added to the count, the young man is well over 200 pitches in the game. According to Dr. Andrews (at a Cal Ripken Foundation clinic 3 years ago), a HS age pitcher should max out at 1800 pitchers per YEAR. And YES, he did include warm up pitches. At the rate the young man in Spartanburg pitched, he would good for about 9 - 10 games per year.
 
Dr. Andrews or the pitch smart guidelines are certainly that, guidelines. Far from an exact science. Similar to the safe arm rehab doctors sometimes prescribe...don't throw over 120 or 150 ft, etc.

Having said that I do agree that the pitch count per inning if high is a big factor. I know one kid on a HS team that threw 60+ pitches, in one inning! They left him in. This was at a 4a school...I couldn't belive it. Kid has some velo but never wanted to pitch again after.

We monitor pitch counts closely, we check off innings that are 13 pitches or less OR 1, 2, 3 innings as quality innings. So if you're throwing 17 per innings (on average) something is wrong, you're either getting touched up, wild, or defense left their gloves in the dugout. I'm discounting that said pitcher could've had a 10 pitch inning and a 24 pitch inning(very taxing) based on "averages".

There's really no good excuse to throw that many pitches (unless he throws a knuckle or something, even still!)

Deuce when in the world did someone throw 70 pitches on back to back days?
 
Satchel Paige often threw 100 pitches on consecutive days. Threw 261 pitches throwing both ends of a doubleheader one time. Said "Let's play three. I ain't done." Wasn't lobbing it, either. DiMaggio said he threw the fastest pitches he ever saw. Just saying.
 
Let's see, who to believe. The foremost orthopedic surgeon on the planet, or some guy whose best argument is a legend who last played over 50 years ago.

Quick, how many Satchel Paiges (or Nolan Ryan's) are there in today's came? How many have there been in the last 50 years?

If that's your best argument, it's incredibly weak. Just saying.
 
I am not arguing. Just answering the question that was posed in the last sentence of the post before mine. That's all. You guys are too jumpy.
 
And there is no exaggeration in talking about the past either. While obviously a great pitcher & player, the concept of playing against only some of the best players in the country vs. today's players that play against specially trained athletes would not make a difference, right? I'm all about baseball history and the lore of the past, but come on and get real. Today's players being trained the way they are would light up pitchers of the past with very few exceptions. Combine the training with better rules enforcement and guys not getting away with doctoring the ball and it is a different game from a pitching standpoint.
 
Shaka I appreciate your reply but I was speaking along the lines of Deuces post, but an impressive feat nonetheless by Satchel Paige.
 
Overuse and high pitch counts are certainly a problem. One challenge in correcting this is the national rule limiting rosters to 18 players - this just doesn't allow enough flexibility to maintain an appropriately manned pitching staff for week after week of 9-inning games, and 3-4 games a week. Not to mention if some of these kids double-up on the weekends with a travel team.
A potential (partial) solution would be to limit regular season games to seven innings. There are already inning limits in the rules - I personally would support pitch counts as well.
 
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