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AAAA State Chapionship and overuse of pitching

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baseballcoach2

May 4, 2007
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This years State Championship was a great game and every kid gave their all to win. I believe that a state championship is not worth pitching any kid that many pitches. The coaches and the HS league should be hung out to dry. The HS league should imediatly take action to limit any pitcher to 100 pitches for for all highschool games. 100 may still be to many for underclassman. The day will come soon when a lawsuit and an award will change things for the worse in highschool baseball. If action is not taken in advance by a governing entity, we are setting highschool baseball for a huge black eye. Every Pitch has a cumlitive effect on the elbow and shoulder. Cunningham has the ability to get paid well and possibily Livingston also. Is winning worth an arm surgury and 10 months of rehab? Not for the kid who has to be cut on it is not. About half of the shoulder surgerys and 65% of the elbow surgurys result in the arm being as strong as it was before the surgury. Physicans cannot do better than God at replacing tendon and ligiment strength. A coach who sacrifices a kids arm so that he can coach a state championship team should be considered abusive and the HS league must realize this and address.
 
All arms are different. So we get a doctor out there and check each pitcher's arm each inning or get a doc to say how many pitches a guy can throw? Just kidding. This is an long-time controversy.
 
are we really going here? We're talking about 2 big, strong kids, who from what I know about both programs take pride in their physical conditioning throughout the year, not just during the season. Next point is that this instance was in May, not in March. These kids were not abused throughout the year. They were taken care of. It's a whole other debate if high school arms throw those number of pitches each start, if they throw in relief, etc. These kids started every 7 days. If you put in the work between starts, in the summer, in the fall, in the winter, in the spring, there is no reason a guy can't run out there in a State Championship game and throw that number of pitches. 4 years ago I saw a kid throw 170 in a high school game. The kid was in shape, took care of himself, the coach prepared his kids physically. Guess what? That player still has his arm attached, it is healthy, he's thriving as a player, and the rest is history. Let's not all of a sudden overreact because a kid threw a certain number of pitches and assume his career is over. I completely agree that there are issues of overuse and kids are being abused, no doubt about that!!!! USSSA rules sanction 9 year olds ONLY throw 9 innings in a weekend. REALLY?!?!?!?!?!?!? There is where it starts!!!! If kids are physically prepared, let them throw!
 
One game is not going to make or break a pitcher's arm. It is the cummulative count measured over a season or a year or even longer that does the damage. Now, assuming that a coach will not be fool enough to let a kid go deep into triple digits in a game that was as special as this one, a 110 - 120 pitch count from a well conditioned kid won't kill him. Especially considering that this SHOULD be his last game for a little while at least.

Now if he goes directly into travel or ALB and starts throwing high numbers trouble may follow.
 
Cunningham was close to or at 160. Livingston was around 125 for the record. Heard from a scorer in the stands who is a regular at Byrnes games.
 
100 pitches is not the threshold for all pitchers. It's just a nice even number that sounds logical. With good conditioning and ample rest, many pitchers can throw over 100 every week. On the other hand, with good conditioning and ample rest, some pitchers can't throw 100 quality pitches in any game.

Painting with such a broad stroke doesn't help your argument.
 
I thought I was off until February but have to chime in on this one. Neither one of those kids will be damaged by their outing in state game (IMO). I think baseball as a whole has become 100 pitch oriented from the pros. But they often cut their pitchers off about the same time as a high school game would end in the 7th and on a great night can make 9. They limit them in the pros because they try to get their starters to 150 to 175 innings and the really good ones 200+. In a really good high school season the #1 guy may throw 70 to 75 inns if they go deep in playoffs, realistically its more like 60 to 65 for the season (once a week). I do think some pitchers are overused, but most coaches use common sense and know their guys. Neither pitcher in the state gm looked tired or worn out to me, even in the 9th, though that would have been about enough for both. One thing I have noticed on SC Varsity is that people are hard on the coaches, but really they know their pitchers better than anyone else. Pitching is not the same for everyone and not at all easy on the arm, but lets trust the coaches a little more, I think. The funny thing about arm injuries is that they can occur in pitch 12, 28, 45 or 103. You know going in its a possibility, but I don't believe there is a magic number for anyone. Its being in good shape and knowing the pitchers recovery time that makes the most difference, again IMHO.
 
Curious to know how many pitches Michael Roth has thrown out in Omaha the last 2 years. My best guess is around 1,796 lol..Price a 30 pitch at most closer for the last few seasons comes in out in Omaha and throws how many innings and pitches?? Lost count myself after he was in there still throwing well over an hour. All Matt Price was really use to up to that point was coming and mowing cats down in less than 5 mins. Now as of last night Forrest Koumas re-injures elbow and most likely out for regionals. Yep let's string Tanner up! Psah how dare the man pitch this young man, an already drafted future MLB player who has had issues with his arm already this season. Maybe he is in there because the cause is more important than the individual?! Shame on Ray!! Oh but this is our beloved USC Gamecocks so stretching the limits of arms do not apply in college. Besides this is the SEC tounament. This season teams like Carolina need wins in this tournament to best position themselves back to Omaha! I think someone in this thread pointed out accurately that coaches know their players.I would think that included HS coaches that have their teams in the state championship along with college coaches like Ray Tanner who does not hesitate to throw a pitcher 150 pitches in a money game..I was kidding somewhat about Coach Tanner . He is a smart man and I would think the huge pitch counts by some of his pitchers that are signed off by him is not harmful. However ask the MLB which compares to college like us maybe comparing college to HS what they think about college baseball's pitching philosophy. Do not think they care for it to much. Everything is reletive folks.


This post was edited on 5/26 9:04 PM by NoDogInTheFight
This post was edited on 5/26 9:13 PM by NoDogInTheFight
This post was edited on 5/26 9:15 PM by NoDogInTheFight
 
it really is not about how many pitches you throw, it's about the rest you get before you throw again.

The ones you need to start looking at are the kids in travel ball that throw 50 pitches on Sat and come back and throw again on Sun, just because Jimmy only threw 2 innings yesterday he can throw again today attitude.
 
Pitch counts are overrated for a single game. Pitch counts over the month or the season are the ones that really matter. As a head coach I have 'extended' a pitcher over 100 pitches as a starter. In the next new starts, usually 2 to 3, the pitcher knows that a pitch count will be placed on him to limit the repetitive wear and tear. His between activity between starts will be more focused on mechanics and conditioning than throwing specific pitch sessions. I have had parents talk with me about this and show great furstration when I tell them that I am not a pitch count guy, I am a coach that looks at mechanics and if there is a loss of velocity and/or control. Does he take longer between pitches? Are the pitches he is throwing in stressful situations (runners in scoring position, against the heart of the order, multiple 2 strike pitches in a row, etc)? I always tell the players as well, don't ever lie to me when I ask you about how you feel, I think you're lying, you're done for a while on the mound (I have had an ace miss two starts in a row because of this rule). Players know how they feel and their fatigue levels better than most coaches, but coaches need to make sure that players know you will listen to them.
 
plus something else to consider is where does he play when not pitching. Does he just DH after a long count game or does he catch or play short? I remember a few years ago Ed Taylor at Walhalla had a kid that pitched and also caught. I remember watching him in a district final catch 7 innings and then pitch the next seven. That was too much on that kids arm in my opinion and then their next game he gave up a bunch of stolen bases mostly I believe cause his arm was tired. I know some coaches who if their ace throws a high count they will DH them if they play on short days.
 
How many of you orthopedic 'sturgeons' posting above have had to sit in a waiting room while your boy's elbow or shoulder was being reconstructed. BTW, as much as you want to minimize the serious of the injury by just refering to it only as Tommy John surgery, it's ulnar collateral ligament reconstruction or elbow reconstruction. And the success rate is about 73 to 75 percent in getting pitchers back to the previous level of pitching.

Pitching fatigued is the number one cause of damage to the arm. Most often fatigued from not enough rest between games AND/OR fatigued from continuing to pitch in a single game when your tendons and supporting muscles are tired but you're gutting it out anyway 'cause "it's a big game" or "you'd have to fight me to take the ball from my hand".

In many cases a coach justifies leaving a kid in because the kid says he feels good and wanted to go the distance or the pitcher was getting it done and it wouldn't be "fair" to the team to take him out, or his mechanics are so smooth, (I've heard that one a lot). Maybe it's that the coach felt he was, at that, moment closer to his elusive state championship than he had ever been or would ever come.

Nobody is doing anybody any favors by pitching a kid 160.

And please...don't try and tell me about all the great conditioning and arm care devoted to pitchers in high school. Almost non existant or at least woefully lacking. When your kid is throwing at a D1 college you will see the difference in what he was missing for all those high school years. Having him run poles or sitting a zip-lock bag of ice you got from the concession stand on a shoulder or having a school trainer massage his arm in school when he says its hurting doesn't cut it.

One more thing, lower state champs or state champs. Doesn't mean a lot to a kid once he's moved to college ball level. From experience, my kid's State Championship ring sits in his room right next to his first 'W ball', first 'no-no ball', a ton of 'game balls',and his All-State plaques.If I don't put it away somewhere it'll probably get lost over time.

So,after going through a painful surgery, an almost year long and painful rehab process and having to learn how to throw again, while sitting out his first year at college, would I'd say it was worth the big game? No way.
 
2seam, I understand your feelings, but would ask you on top of high school, where and how much did your son pitch the rest of the year?

One of the moments that haunted me for a long time was when a kid who was pitching for me in a summer league game walked off the mound in the second inning, after throwing a total of 15 pitches in the game, and said "I'm done." Complete elbow reconstruction and Tommy John were required.
This was a varsity aged kid in his first outing of the summer. His Mother, an R.N., assured me that his Doctors had pointed to his life long body of work as the culprit. Even though I knew that throwing 15 pitches for me hadn't hurt him, I couldn't shake the feelings of blame because I was the Man on the Field when he got hurt.
 
2seam, while I agree with much of what you say, I also hold the opinion that a single game typically is not the problem when a young man goes under the knife. I have discussed pitch counts, mechanics, proper warmup and cool down methods, etc. with several pretty high level orthopedic surgeons and every one has focused on what a pitcher has done over a long period of time, never once have they blamed a single outing. While I do keep every pitcher on a pitch count with minimal flexibility, I am more concerned with their pregame and post game activities and rest between outings than I am a number.

My son was a college pitcher also. His career ended when weight training was pushed by his college coaches (at a very successful baseball school). He has always done flexibility work prior to his college time and never had an issue with his arm. One year at school was all it took and he was not only done pitching, but still has a hard time lifting his throwing arm over his head. He is now 26 and will never have the enjoyment of throwing a ball with his son or daughter when the time comes.

All of this being said, injuries happen for a lot of different reasons. Throwing a baseball is not a natural motion and puts pressure on muscles, tendons, ligaments and bones that are not meant to absorb the abuse.
 
How many times did you take your son to play weekend after weekend, pitch/throw game after game in the spring, summer, fall, winter?? "Showcases", camps, etc. There comes a point in time when the parent has to take some responsibility for the health of their son when they are ones who are carting/paying and pushing them to play year round.
 
BBFan: I wrote a lengthy response justifying why you're misguided as far as my relation with my son and his chosen sport goes but after consideration I deleted it just before posting because i don't believe I owe you a complete response. I will only say - don't presume that you know somebody when you obviously don't.
 
BBF, I can tell you from one dad's standpoint that my son threw was on a regiment that was put together for him by Mike Mussina. He pitched no more than 7 innings twice a month during tournament season and never went back to back days. To think that you know anything at all about 2seam's son and what he did is beyond crazy. His dad, like so many other dads would have followed the advice of trained instructors / coaches in combination with knowing his son and what he is capable of doing.

While I don't know 2seam, I have read enough of his posts to feel comfortable that you are way off base. None of us as dad or coaches ever wants to see a young man go under the knife for any reason.
 
The Biggest thing to understand is what works for one player or person doesn't work for all. I would be hesitant to use a throwing program that a major league player uses simply because the body type and strengths are vastly different than that of a high school kid.

The biggest reason for injury is overuse.
However, overuse does not happen in one game or just one day. overuse comes after the kid has pitched. What did he do the next day? What did he do at practice leading into the start. How much rest was allocated to the kid.
If he is also a shortstop and throws 110 pitches on Tuesday, then goes to practice on Wednesday and Thursday and takes 50 ground balls each day and makes 40 throws each day, then plays short on Friday night and makes 10 throws at full strength and another 40 between innings, then does not throw Sat or Sun then takes 50 ground balls and throws and performs a bullpen at practice on Monday, then Throws again on Tuesday in a start. repeat this over an 11 week period and there is overuse.
If a kid pitched 80-100 pitches all year and in one game threw 160, his arm isn't going to fall off because of that one outing.

I knew a kid who would pitch one day (80-110 per outing) and the next day be out at the field trying to throw the ball as far as he could. No matter what any coach told him or why he needed to not do that, he thought it was what he needed. After 4 years of doing this, he finally went under the knife. Not because he was overused during games, but because he overused himself.
On the other hand, Mark Prior was well taken care of through college and pro baseball. He had good mechanics and wasn't overused as a pitcher and didn't play a position, then Booom, one day he is going under a knife.

Arm injuries are not limited to just pitchers. position players have them as well. So we can't say that overuse on the mound is a single qualifier for injuries.
There is no pin point reason as to why it happens.
Rest for the arm is important, but it is equally important that the kid is on a routine that allows his arm to maintain stength, and recover from use.
 
Radar, just to clarify. My son used a program designed for him by Mike, it was not the same program that he used as a pro. The program was based on my son's strengths and weaknesses, body type, mechanics, etc. The program was revised and updated as he gained strength and as needed.
 
I wasn't trying to call you/your son's relation with the sport in question. I wanted to make a generalized comment as to how many games kids throw over a period of a high school season, summer season, showcase events, a fall season, etc. In my time being around the game, # of pitches/innings/games is ever a problem with a parent until that point where injury occurs. I knew a guy who used to throw Tuesday and Friday night during his HS season and it wasn't start then close. It was complete games, this being at a premier baseball school in the state not too long ago. But that being said, the development of travel baseball was a pipdream and he'd play his HS season and play Legion and was done until the next spring so his arm had time to recover.
 
No problem. Hard to tell sometimes where a person is coming from through type only.
 
Maybe we need a comparison of generations? From the 1870's until the late 1980's no one bothered with pitch counts. Readiness was predicated on days rest between starts. Juan Marichal pitched BP on his days off. I mean, how in the world did Ty Cobb ever hit a ball or steal a base without gloves on both hands? Sometimes we just over-analyze the game too much. That said, we DO need to protect young athletes from overuse and bad form injuries.
 
Interesting article on long toss and pitch counts.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8012095/baseball-pitch-counts-shifting-wisdom-best-training-arms
 
Very good article with many good points to be made.

Excerpt: "But the emphasis on pitch counts and innings limits obscures a central fact: Pitchers are overpitched and undertrained."

My point exactly - I do not believe that high school pitchers get the type of training needed to go 'deep' into games without eventually doing damage to their arms. Just take a look around at the kids you know who have had tommy john already.
 
While we're at it, let's limit the number of carries a RB can have in a HS game as well...like another poster said, it's all about the rest in between.
 
Originally posted by LeftyTosser:
May need to limit the number of books a student can read also. Might hurt their brain!
Click to expand...


Wait think about that? what brain?
 
Read a book? You're actually suggesting that a student in this day and time read a book? That would have absolutely no positive effect on our PACT scores and therefore would be a waste of time.
 
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