Greenville High?
- Thread starter olcoach04
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None of the above. Horrendous performance. The list of what wrong is long. Bad QB play, worse OL play. Dropped passes. Can't establish run when trailing 20-0 ten minutes into the game. Swiss cheese pass defense. No pass rush. Missed tackles. No defensive adjustments. Missed tackles. Blown coverages. Outplayed, outcoached, outhustled. Give credit to Nation Ford for execution of game plan. However, their is no way they are 55 points better than Greenville. Really inexcusable performance by Greenville. The highlight for Greenville was the halftime performance by the band.
Cringe,
The point was that many of the coaches who had swag and brought that to the players at Gville have left. The whole staff (and kids) had it for about a 5-7 year period. The places mentioned are places some of those coaches have landed. In many situations, that "swag" or work ethic it takes to install that confidence (and swag) in the players cannot come from a single assistant coach all at once.
Remember, JLM and GVille play this week. I will put lots of $$ on this, the JLM defense will play more coverages, fronts, and stunts in the first quarter than Gville will the entire game and there will be no question which school has the better D.
TBowe
I don't think using JL Mann in any football argument will ever win you any points. Their program is atrocious. 3-30 record the previous three seasons. However, their defense is respectable this year, without much help from the offense, and some of that credit has to go to the new DC that you're talking about. He has the swag you're referring to.
Greenville doesn't have great numbers, but they have some talent, yet you don't sense that killer mentality from them. Whether that's the kids or the coaches leading them remains to be seen. I do know that Nation Ford had the confidence and swagger that Greenville did not have. I also know that the difference in talent alone is not 55 points. Greenville got beat up and quit. To me that does fall on the coaching staff.
You may very well be right. However, your post seems to be more about you and your coaching friends than the reality of the situation at Greenville. I am familiar with what you had to work with at GHS and you guys produced some outstanding football teams. I am also sure you would agree that many times when you don't have the same level of players it can be quite difficult to do what you have done in the past. (As you are fully aware of this year at Daniel) You have made mention of several very good coaches in this post. How many of them would put a killer defense on the field with 1 returning starter off a very bad defense, 5 sophomores and a senior that had never played a down of football in the starting 11? That is that current situation at Greenville.
Mann may very well support your claim on Friday but you make your assertions about fronts, stunts, and coverages based off your knowledge of the Mann DC and without really being aware of what Greenville has tried to do. Good luck going forward.
Cringe,
Totally agree with the Jimmys and the Joes argument, but good coaches make below average players (and teams) better with effort and scheme. I did see Gville for 1/2 this pre-season and saw 4-4 cover 3 every down. Perhaps they have changed since that 1/2. If they are that young on D, mixing things up and moving kids around may give them a better shot at stopping somebody? I know the OCs around all love to know what they are going to line up against every play. Sure makes their job a lot easier.
I hope Gville can right the ship. I still have a couple friends there and liked David a great deal the year we spent together there. Thanks for the luck, we need it!!!
TBowe
I agree with all you say about lack of experience and that the greatest DC in the world can only do so much with limited talent. This is two years in a row of terrible defense. On top of that, the adjustments have either been minimal or ineffective. When guys stop playing hard, yet remain on the field, there is a problem besides lack of talent.
Well if you want to cut hairs, Greenville started being good when I first joined the board. Coach Frost hired Sosbee and had Dooley and several good coaches and it grew!
Greenville's problems go beyond it's recent football struggles. Can't say for sure how they were doing across the board the 1 or 2 years before moving to 4A but during the early 2000s and up to and including maybe 2010 Greenville's entire athletic program was something to be feared. With the exception of baseball, 4A has hit Greenville like a truck in all sports. Hec, even their Comp Cheer team that won 3A state four years ago didn't make it to state last year. XC and Swim were dominant groups in 3A years ago, now almost non-existent. Boys Basketball hasn't been relevant either lately. Seems like it's not just a football thing over there but an athletic thing potentially.
The area around Greenville High is changing rapidly. I believe your best football days are behind you.
The only way to fix the issue is to recruit and the current staff at Greenville isn't going to do that. As noted above, Greenville is playing with a totally different type of kid than it was just a few years ago. It will also help when Greenville starts playing schools more its size next year. When you have 1300 students and most of the schools you play have a few hundred more than that it makes it difficult. Add in the new 8 qrt rule and GHS is lucky to be dressing 40 kids on Friday nights if that.
There is no doubt that they don't have the numbers that they used to, nor as many quality players. Some of that has to do with those coaches leaving and other schools offering improved programs. Not nearly as many kids using fake addresses to get to GHS as there once was. There were years when they were great, that 30% to 50% of the starters were living outside of the geo-code.There were always a few from Mauldin and Hillcrest. Lots from Carolina, Southside, and Berea, and some from northern Greenville county. Heck, I remember a year when it was closer to 80%. And I am fine with that, it is not a criticism. I'm simply pointing out that it has changed. GHS began attracting those players when the team was showing signs of improvement and they became a great program with those new non-Greenville kids. Before that era, Greenville was horrible for multiple decades. I don't think Greenville can be what they were strictly pulling from their geo-code, they certainly couldn't do it in the past.
I'm not sure if that is sincerity or sarcasm. They had to have that win or it might have led to the wheels falling off, and a winless season. Mann is in the same boat, but they do get to play Riverside and Wade Hampton.
"Not nearly as many kids using fake addresses to get to GHS as there once was." - Written in earlier post. Maybe they are playing by the rules now and the results are different. And help may not be on the way. Next year they will be in a region with Belton-Honea Path, Daniel, Greenville, Pickens, and Wren. At least they will escape the larger teams.
At its current level, maybe Greenville can handle Pickens out of that new crowd. No doubt that the program has slipped. You could see it at the end of Magdic's tenure, and has just gotten worse. Greenville did used to attract folks from other zones. Perfectly legal in Greenville County. Why would a kid not want to play in a decent football program as opposed to being stuck in the mediocrity, or worse, of the majority of Greenville County schools. But that attraction has obviously been lost.
It's going to be a long season at Greenville. The numbers are down, but there are still some good athletes. There's no excuse for how bad it is. There is a mindset and attitude that winning coaches have. It resonates to and inspires players. The winners mentality that Greenville used to have is gone. It may have been eroding under Magdic, but it seems completely gone now. The lack of intensity and the nonchalant reaction to losing is a problem. Greenville is heading in the direction of JL Mann and Wade Hampton very fast.
Couldn't have said it better myself. There I used to be an attitude at Greenville, or I guess a confidence, that existed under Frost, and then Sosebee. You could sense that slip under Magdic for some reason, and now it is totally gone. Greenville found a way to rise above the normal GC level for a decade, or so. And you are right in saying that they now seem to be headed in the direction of JL Mann and Wade Hampton.
A hunch or are you hearing things? It's only year two of the current regime, with obviously poor results.
Can see Greenville High not being as patient with mediocrity, or less, like many Greenville County schools seem to be satisfied with. Many around Greenville High are fairly well politically connected. If the right set of folks think a change should be made, it probably will. It is only the second year of the staff, and while what they inherited wasn't as good as it once was, it was a far sight better than the product you are seeing now.
Way back in the day when it was basically Greenville and Parker, they were among the elite of Upstate football... from the mid-1970's until about the mid-1990's....they were HORRIBLE and were trotted off to the woodshed every season- might have had a couple marginally winning seasons during that period.....things ebb and flow...seems G-ville fans have short memories.
Exactly! During the 10-15 year run that they had, the overwhelming majority of their starters were from outside of their geo-code and they were NOT there as academy students. They were there on fake addresses. Many people don't realize that the academy status is not the advantage that many assume it is. Students who are going into the academy must have their file go before a committee and they will only be accepted if they meet academic AND discipline standards. Almost every other GC school is an open enrollment school which means that they can take any kid regardless of grades or discipline (in fact they are not allowed to consider discipline or grades) up until they are full. Eastside for example has about 300 special permission kids. Greenville in 2009-2010 had great talent and a phenomenal defense. more than half of their starters were from outside of their zone using fake addresses. Now one loophole int he academy thing - if you are already a student there and you want to stay there, they can slide you into the academy without you going before the committee. So you use a fake address you first year and then pretend you moved and you ask to go into the academy program. THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TALENT LIVING IN THE GHS GEO-CODE TO WIN LIKE THEY DID. As stated above, they were the biggest joke in Greenville County football for decades.
But the point is that the direction of that program WAS changed. And that was over the span of three head coaches. Frost, Sosebee, and to a lesser degree under Magdic though it started to fade before he left. So where there is a will, there is a way. Apparently that way has been lost.
Greenville did change it's football culture and although they couldn't win state, they became a very good program, and they could play with anyone. The 90's were average, but from 2001-2010 they were 97-27. The culture and the attitude of the program changed. People keep talking about kids coming in from other parts of the district. That's the way the county has it set up for Greenville High. They're the only high school in the county that doesn't get the majority of kids from at least one middle school. They get kids from six different middle schools. It's not like they can pick from the litter of those kids either.They get a far less than majority pull from those schools. This makes it really challenging for football in particular. Developing a D-team(7th/8th grade) has been nearly impossible from a numbers/interest standpoint. From 2011-2013 they slipped to 20-15. 2014-2015 teams are now 4-13. Sure, they moved up to 4A, but that's still unacceptable. Numbers and talent obviously matter, but the well isn't completely dry at Greenville. Utilizing the talent you have, motivating players, and showing some competiveness and improvement are things good coaches do.
You bring up some really good points that a lot of people don't realize about Greenville County. Greenville does pull from a lot of different middle schools and really does not have a true feeder, they really don't even have a youth league feeder. However this is the case for most of the district. Only 3 or 4 of the 14 high schools get all of the students that attend one of their nearby middle schools (Hillcrest, Greer, and TR). There are many high schools that get the majority of the kids that attend a neighboring middle school, but not as much as you might think. For example, Eastside is 2 blocks away from Northwood, but those kids go almost equally to Wade Hampton, Eastside, and JL Mann. Eastside pulls significantly from 6 different middle schools to make up their student body, not including those on special permission, I am only speaking of the kids assigned to the schools. A significant portion of Riverside Middle, which is right across the street from Riverside High, goes to Mauldin high. This is a major problem for most of our schools when it comes to band and athletics. Makes things very difficult. Even at schools that draw mainly from one middle school, they will also draw students from as many as 5 other middle schools. And some middle schools are sending kids to 6 different high schools based on assignment, not special permission.
This is one of the reasons why the high schools offer D-team instead of the middle schools offering middle school ball. If Greenville Middle School had middle school ball and the head coach was an "Eastside" guy he would influence kids to go to Eastside (which is where Eastside draws many of their students from). So with D-team football the high school coaches who work at the high school that a kid is zoned for have 2 years to get a good grip on the kids and maybe convince them to attend the school they are supposed to attend.
Now, when I was referring to kids at Greenville coming from all over the county I was not referring to the situation that you correctly pointed out about the middle schools that they pull from. I was specifically referring to students zoned for Mauldin or Hillcrest (and there were many) that came to Greenville either as a part of the Academy program, or more often than not, they came using fake addresses because they could not get in on the Academy. When Hillcrest, Mauldin, Southside, and Berea were offering very bad football programs, football athletes flocked to the school that was offering a better experience. Don't blame them. The difficult thing now for Greenville is that some of those schools now offer a good football experience. So it will be much more difficult now to rebuild the Greenville program than it was the last time. By the way, Hodge would have probably won or played for a AA state championship at Carolina in his best year there if Greenville had not had about 6 starters that were using fake addresses from the Corolina Geo-code alone. That team in particular had like 9 out of 11 defensive starters from outside of the attendance zone - fake addresses. That is still happening there a little. I know of a few. But not nearly as much because going to Hillcrest, Mauldin, or Southside are good options now.
As I mentioned before, I'm not criticizing Greenville for getting other peoples kids. Look, they were outworking everybody else and offering a much better experience and kids were coming, not necessarily because anyone was asking them (some were recruited, most were not). I can not speak on the subject of the current staff. I simply have no knowledge at all about the situation now. I'll take your word on that.
Greenville presents some challenges. It is a difficult place. The wealthy and powerful parents help a great deal in being able to offer a special experience. They also put a great deal of pressure on the leaders of the school (and I don't blame them, but it makes it a tough place). They also have a particular set of social-economic-cultural issues that I won't air out here that make it a very difficult environment. And finally, they are actually at a disadvantage when it comes to getting kids in to their school that are not zoned for them. I previously explained that that had a lot to do with their previous era of success. But, contrary to what many people think, and contrary to what many of Greenville's critics during their winning day thought, it is much more difficult to "recruit" there than other places.
Here is what you need to know about Greenville Coutny school assignments:
1-Greenville is an open enrollment district. Any kid can go to any school without having to use a fake address, so long as the school has space, and the kid has transportation. And under the SCHSL's new rules, they will be eligible (even if they are not freshmen).
2-There are some schools that are over capacity and can not take any special permission students.
3-Academies operate under different rules. Kids apply, they are considered by a committee based on grades and discipline. At some of the academies, they don't have room for very many academy students from outside of their zone. Some are too close to their building capacity. Some are trying to keep numbers down to stay in AAA or AAAA.
It is actually easier at most non-academy schools to gain new student-athletes than it is at the academies. So this old argument/complaint has been a fallacy. Some athletes have gone to Greenville or Mann as academy students. Most just used fake addresses. Then slid into the academy after they were already an established student. Again, I don't blame them. No one ever complained about the 300 special permission kids at Eastside, as if that was not the same thing. There are several schools in Greenville that could add hundreds of special permission kids next year based on being way under their building capacity. They could have a whole new football team transfer in, all be eligible, and it would be legal, as long as they didn't ask them to come. But if they offer a better experience and kids decide they want to do it, then they can.
This is a very interesting time in Greenville County athletics. It will be interesting to see how things play out over the next few years.
IMO Greenville High is getting paid back for all the dirty deeds of their past. I'm a Berea guy from a Parker High family...Greenville wanted Parker closed and they did everything and used all their power to close it and they finally got their way in '85. Next on their agenda was to go after the best players on their rivals' rosters. Up and down the lines, basketball, football, baseball, etc. Best kids at Carolina, Mann, Berea, WH and Eastside with a few trickling in from Mauldin and Woodmont all of a sudden showed up at Greenville. The blue bloods loved it until a few staffs ago when the dirt got a little too grimy and some of the "players" on their teams got a little too much power and didn't want to behave so they started going to Eastside, Mauldin, Hillcrest and a few other places. Now the good players from grand old Greenville Senior High go to the schools that have better sports programs. It's cyclical...baseball is hot at Mann right now, basketball is fairly good at WH, TR, Eastside, Hillcrest and on and on. Nobody wants to go to GHS anymore. The better players from GHS now go to Christ Church and a few may end up at St. Joes. Some that were using fake addresses are now back at the school they belonged to, Berea, where they were living in apartments across the street from the school. Before too many lose it on me, no I'm not putting BHS on a pedestal, trust me Berea is a different can of worms now. It's good having Coach Maness & Coach Green back "home" and a few other coaches putting int he time and hard work with the kids in that area but they still have a tough job on their hands.
The Red Raiders will be back................. when they get smart in hiring.