PLAYERS-/PARENTS-What Exactly are you Showcasing?

[COHAZE]

This is a topic that has been bugging me for a while. Names have been changed to protect the innocent.

Timmy is a pitcher. Everyone agrees that if he has a future in college baseball, it is as a pitcher. Timmy is a rising senior. He "sits" 83-84. He may occasionally "flash" an 85, or even an 86, but that's pretty rare. The problem is that Jimmy has been sitting 83-84 for two years now. He looked like a hot prospect a couple of years ago, but now, not so much. He and his parents have bought into the argument that you have to play travel ball for the exposure. So, that's what Timmy has been doing for the last couple of summers and falls. Unfortunately, Timmy is not getting much interest from scouts. He and his parents don't understand why because he has done everything he is supposed to do to get recruited.

So, what is wrong with this picture? What Timmy's parents don't understand is that all they are doing is "exposing" the fact that he is not progressing. Sure, good competition is a good thing. But, what Timmy needs is velocity, and constant travel ball is a poor way to develop it. Let's face it. If Timmy wants to play serious college ball he needs to get well into the upper 80's, if not 90. The odds of that happening doing what he is currently doing are pretty slim. The problem is no one will tell him/his parents that.

One of the best lines I ever read was "Players are made in the off season." Timmy has no off season because if he doesn't play summer and fall ball he will "fall behind." Timmy would be better off taking a summer (and/or fall) off and work on building velocity. He needs a serious conditioning program focusing on his lower body and core. (Not what you typically get in a HS program). He needs to be on a daily shoulder maintenance/prehab program. (He should have been on one for years). He needs to be on a REGULAR long toss program. A weighted ball program might also be an option.

Will any of this help? Maybe. Maybe not. He may have already reached his genetic limit. But it's the only shot he has. And it is darn near impossible to work a comprehensive velocity program while playing travel ball (or Legion) at the same time.

I have used Timmy the pitcher as an example. But, the same could be true of catchers as well. If your kid is throwing a 2.3 pop time for the second or third year in a row it's time for a new plan. If your middle infielder is still running a 7.5, it's time for a new plan. There's no point in showcasing his lack of development.

The problem is no one will tell Timmy and his parents this. Is the travel ball coach going to do it? Yeah, he may tell Timmy he needs to work on conditioning. But, is he going to tell Timmy he would be better off working on his velocity than playing another season or travel ball? Probably not. In fairness, the Legion coach is not going to tell him this either. They need him a lot more than he needs them.

Wake up people, before it's too late. I once read that the biggest problem with HS baseball players is that most of them have no sense of urgency. If you/your kid is like Timmy, time is running out.

 

[jsuscfan]

This is SPOT ON ! Great Post .

 

[umdterpcock]

Most of the travel ball coaches, or travel ball organizations, are looking for numbers of players, not quality of players. Each kid represents a certain amount of $$$$$$, they rarely look out for a players best interest.

Case in point, I was at a site in the upstate of SC last fall, it was a 16u "showcase". Both teams playing at that time were from that general area. I noticed a catcher for one of the teams was a very little boy, honestly he would have been small for a little league team.

I umpired the next game, he again was catching. I won't use his name, I'll call him player "X". So after an inning or so I asked him how old he was. He replied 15, Im playing up. I said "good for you, do you play with these guys all the time?". He said "yes sir" with a huge grin on his face. I then asked about where he went to high school, his reply "you wouldn't know it even if I told you". Told him I'd been around a long time and probably knew where he went to school. He said "really I live in (out of state), it's about 2 hours from here, that's where I go to high school."

Player "X" had very average to less than average baseball skills, but he did play the game the right way.

This is the perfect example of an organization looking out for themselves financially instead of looking out for the kids best interest.

The up front thing to do would be for the organizations leadership to sit down with that family and tell them that if they were going to invest their money with them that the best thing for player "X" to do would be to play another postion that was better suited to his size, which I thought might only be second base, BUT NO they happily took the familys money and let player "X" flounder at a position that he loved without doing what was best for any future he might have.

Travel ball is all wrong these days for many reasons, not to mention that it's very watered down. Maybe a big city like Atlanta can produce enough quality players to make it work but in general the only people benefitting from it is the organization with which they play for and I can assure you the money that some of these organizations are making off of innocent people is huge!

This post was edited on 7/9 1:16 PM by umdterpcock

This post was edited on 7/9 1:17 PM by umdterpcock

 

[COHAZE]

I'm not quite as down on travel ball as umdterpcock. But, he did touch on something else that bothers me. He mentioned the watered down nature of travel ball and all the local teams playing in local tournaments/showcase. In another thread I referred to some travel teams as Rec-Travel. Perhaps a better name for them would be Weekend Teams. There's a lot of teams out there that are no better, if as good, than the teams you used to see in Pony League and Dixie Majors. They're just playing on the weekends now instead of weekdays.

But, the kids and parents don't see it that way. They tell people they're playing "TRAVEL BALL," with as much authority and self-importance as they can muster. They view it as some badge of honor. Unfortunately, it sounds like a much bigger deal than it really is. Don't get me wrong. Some people realize that they/their kid is playing on a low level team. But, most do not. Some have been snowed by the coach. But, some are simply deluding themselves.

What I have seen with a lot of the kids on such teams, and on some of the "high level" teams, is that being a travel baller makes them complacent. They have been told that they "need" to play "travel" ball, but they don't understand that they NEED to do a heck of a lot more. They play on the weekends, but spend the summer weekdays hanging out with the girlfriend and/or lounging around the pool. Travel ball does not deliberately encourage this complacency, but is definitely a side effect with many kids and parents.

WAKE UP PARENTS/PLAYERS. PLAYING ON THE WEEKENDS IS NOT NEARLY ENOUGH IF YOU WANT TO PLAY IN COLLEGE.

 

[umdterpcock]

Sorry if that made me come across as negative on travel ball. I just get bent about these coaches, or organizations, in it for the money.

Good ball players, at least position players, need to play and they need to play a good bit. They also need to see good pitching. It does a good player no good to go to home plate and play dodge ball or stand in the field for walk after walk. There simply isn't enough pitching to go around.

Just a few weeks ago I heard a coach scream at one of his players (14u) "what are you doing!!!!!" What ticked me off was honestly the kid didn't know what he was doing and the coach had no idea why the kid didn't know what he was doing. They were playing in their 8th game in 3 days, the coach never thought the kids may be burnt. That's way too much for a 14 year old, Im sure the kids brain was fried. That's over-load and too much for a pro player much less a 14 year old. Pro players average about 6 games in 7 days, most kids average 6 games a weekend.

Clueless coaches ruin travel ball too, just saying.

Travel ball, not watered down, can be real good for kids, but unfortunately there is more bad than good.

 

[Chicksdigmylongball]

What ever organization you play in you need to have a plan. You will only develop at the rate of the work you put into it. The pitcher who is sitting 83-84 and needs to develop more velocity needs to invest heavily in a long toss program, core medicine balls, and plyometrics. the 84 will turn to 88.

On the other point made....travel ball nor legion will expose you to anything except game experience. If you want to be on the radar of a school....go to their camp....unless you are a draftable player

 

[umdterpcock]

Originally posted by Chicksdigmylongball:

On the other point made....travel ball nor legion will expose you to anything except game experience. If you want to be on the radar of a school....go to their camp....unless you are a draftable player

Have to totally disagree with this part of your comment. Travel teams that go to East Cobb are exposed, and Legion teams with talent are scouted. Last year in Legion I saw college and pro scouts in regular season and playoff. In Sumter, at the state finals, there were tons of scouts.

Yes going to a schools camps are great exposure BUT there are opportunites elsewhere. Diamond Prospect events are always packed with scouts as well, and those events are typically cheaper than a college camp.

 

[carolinacombat]

Well let's get down to brass tacks. Who are some guys that've been picked up playing exclusively legion? D1, D2, JUCO, or pro?

I'd sincerely hope there would be scouts at the state finals (being rhetorical here I know that's when they see legion if they do). You have a good juco in Sumter, and you get the best legion teams in one spot so scouts can see a lot of guys (if they are not too old).

I'll hang up and listen.

 

[COHAZE]

Ah. You've hit on the key word "exclusively." Hardly anyone plays for any team exclusively over the course of a HS career. I know kids that have played for multiple travel teams AND played Legion over the course of their careers. It's hard to say who deserves the most "credit" when those kids commit to colleges. (Usually the player and his dad IMHO). But, one thing is certain. They are ALL going to claim credit. That's why you sometimes see kids listed as alumni or commitments on multiple travel team sites.

As a general rule, Legion does not offer a lot of exposure to scouts. I've been to a lot of games over the last 10 years and you usually don't see many scouts until you get to the state tournament. During the regular season most of the scouts that you do see are from small schools located close to the Legion team. The numbers go up some at the state tournament, but most of the big schools are only there to see a couple of kids. They usually take off after the first day or two of the tournament. The smaller schools may linger until the end.

Of course, the same is often true of travel team. I recently talked to a kid who plays for what is generally considered the premier team in SC. He said there were only a couple of scouts at their last tournament. But, there will be a ton at the PG/WWBA events. Of course, the benefits of playing in front of all those scouts are somewhat dubious because 95% off them will be from states other than SC. Yet 95% of the players from SC will end up playing IN state.

I have mixed feelings about camps. They can be a very good value, especially if you are looking at a smaller school. But, it's easy to get lost in the shuffle at a big camp UNLESS they invite you or know about you already.

The DP events can offer very good exposure. But, as with travel ball, you need to ask yourself what it is you are showcasing before you spend the money.

Again, I have no problem with travel ball. It can be a great thing for some kids. But, you have to be smart about it.

Originally posted by carolinacombat:
Well let's get down to brass tacks. Who are some guys that've been picked up playing exclusively legion? D1, D2, JUCO, or pro?

I'd sincerely hope there would be scouts at the state finals (being rhetorical here I know that's when they see legion if they do). You have a good juco in Sumter, and you get the best legion teams in one spot so scouts can see a lot of guys (if they are not too old).

I'll hang up and listen.

 

[Chicksdigmylongball]

If you are a good player they will find you...you don't have to go anywhere or pay any money to be exposed. You simply can't hide a good player. Some people don't like this idea because it destroys their income (hint travel ball) I like the Diamond Prospect stuff....they do a lot of research to get info out there on players. As for Cobb....a friend of mine took essentially a junior legion team to Cobb last fall and finished 2nd in a wood bat tournament with more than 70 teams. He told me he didn't see any college coaches or pro-scouts. There will be a few college coaches at the state tournament hoping to find a diamond in the rough....but pro-scouts just don't go to a tournament to find you....they go where there is somebody they know they want to see.

 

[COHAZE]

The part about "if you are a good player they will find you" is only partially true. Yeah, if you're a high level pro or D-1 prospect, there's a good chance that every in state college you are interested in will find you. But 99% of the players out there do not fit into that category. They probably need to do more, be it camps, DP showcases, a quality travel team, or a quality Legion team. Yeah, if you're an above average HS player at Lower Podunk HS, the guys at Lower Podunk JuCo will probably find you without your doing any of that. But, if you aspire to play at Lander, Erskine, FMU, or PC you need to do something to get in front of those guys.

It's not as easy for scouts to get out and see a HS player as most people think. During the season D-1 schools get one day off per week, usually Mondays. There usually aren't many HS games scheduled on Mondays, unless they're make ups. 4 days a week are usually taken up by games. The remaining 2 days are taken up by practice and/or travel. Coaches will sometimes slip out to see a player on one of these two days IF he is local AND IF he has a game that day. But, they're usually going to see kids they already know something about. They rarely go out during the week just hoping to stumble upon a player. They WILL do some of this during the off season. There are always exceptions, but they usually don't do it at Legion games, or at 3rd tier tournaments in Lower Podunk.. They usually head for locations where there are more bodies, and hopefully, more talent. Do they LIKE doing this? Not always. I had one D-1 recruiting coordinator tell me he absolutely hated going to East Cobb, but he did it because he had to.

Even during the off season it's not as easy to find kids as you might think. D-1 teams have 6 weeks of fall practice that take up much of their time. There are also dead periods when they cannot go off campus to see kids. That's one reason why a lot of these fall/winter tournaments are poorly attended.

There is a place for travel ball IF it's the right team, the right kid, at the right time/age. But, the notion that travel ball in general is a panacea is crazy.

Originally posted by Chicksdigmylongball:

If you are a good player they will find you...you don't have to go anywhere or pay any money to be exposed. You simply can't hide a good player. Some people don't like this idea because it destroys their income (hint travel ball) I like the Diamond Prospect stuff....they do a lot of research to get info out there on players. As for Cobb....a friend of mine took essentially a junior legion team to Cobb last fall and finished 2nd in a wood bat tournament with more than 70 teams. He told me he didn't see any college coaches or pro-scouts. There will be a few college coaches at the state tournament hoping to find a diamond in the rough....but pro-scouts just don't go to a tournament to find you....they go where there is somebody they know they want to see.

 

[LeftyTosser]

Absolutely agree cohaze. With the schedules of college and high school games it is almost impossible for coaches to see players during the season. Unfortunately one of the things that SOME travel programs use to lure parents to their teams is that "scouts will see your son or daughter" when they play with us. In 99% of the cases that is total BS. Every travel program that has ever had a kid play one inning of a game will claim to be the reason the kid got recruited and signed.

Travel ball has a place in the game, but unfortunately most "travel ball" is no more than rec ball on weekends. It's the same type and level of teams that used to play Dixie, Ripken or whatever other rec program was in your town. The true travel ball teams are still out there and still very good at getting exposure for their players. But again, that is probably less than 5% of all teams. For those that wonder if their team is one of the 5% here is an easy way to know for sure: 1.) Has your team played in more than 4 local tournaments in the past 12 months? 2.) Are you playing up in age and at something other than a AA or AAA level? 3.) Are most of the players on the team the same as last year?

 

[carolinacombat]

AA or AAA? We are not talking about the same type of "travel ball".Yes there are some "less skilled" teams formed out there that play on weekends, most will never step on the same field with a true travel program in a college showcase tournament. Also, I know for a fact there are "legion teams" not sponsored by a legion post that are comparable to rec ball for older ages. It's important to compare apples to apples. The good travel programs out there compete (and have beat on occasion) some of the JUCO's in this state during the fall.

 

[LeftyTosser]

combat, I totally agree. I was referring more to the younger groups where parents are more interested in hardware that skill development. Those are commonly referred to as "travel ball" teams, but the furthest distance they travel is less than 2 hours and heaven forbid, they actually face a team with more than 2 good players!!!

 

[COHAZE]

There are so many different tiers of travel ball that it's ridiculous. For example, over 300 of the Top Tier 17u teams (including 5-6 from SC) have been in Atlanta for the last 10 days at the big PG/WWBA event. I think the 17u teams finish today. The Top Tier 16u teams start their big event in Atlanta today. There are probably 5-6 SC teams in that tournament as well.

But what about the other SC teams? Well, there's also a Second Tier tournament this weekend at 4 upstate colleges. I think it has 21 teams in it, but it includes 15u, 16u, 17u, and 18u teams. Is this tournament worth going to? Could be. If you're a 17u and interested in one of the colleges where the games are being played there will probably be a coach there scouting. But, you're probably not going to see many/any scouts from other schools because most of them are in Atlanta.

Meanwhile, there is also a Third Tier tournament going on in the upstate this weekend. I am told they have around 16 teams ranging from 14u to 18u. Is this tournament worth going to? If you're just looking to get a few games in, maybe. But, who knows what kind of competition you will face. More importantly, if you're looking to get scouted at this tournament you're probably wasting your time and money.

I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that there are even more tournaments going on in SC this weekend, all catering to these same age groups.
This post was edited on 7/11 12:01 PM by COHAZE

 

[carolinacombat]

Perfect Game, been there, done that, too. It all boils down to what you want. Most kids from this state want to play at in-state schools, for obvious reasons. Now if you want to go to PG and get your 16u's some camp brochures from schools all over the southeast and beyond, then go ahead. Southwest Louisiana Tech State may have seen him, maybe not, but you'll still get a camp brochure (now the player thinks he's being "recruited"). You can usually get that from filling out a questionnaire on your target school's website, for free...and you don't have to spend two thousand bucks and a week running around middle Georgia. For a kid from SC, a chance to play at D1, D2, or JUCO school of interest on the weekend might be more enticing and efficient...again, if that's what they want.

The unfortunate part is when legion or travel ball coaches are interested in a kid they rarely ask what the player is looking for, they make it all about themselves and either legion or travel is evil (whichever one they are not coaching at the time) and it becomes about the coach's ego. Be straight with the young man. Tell him what would be required of him at each level, including academics, etc. Tell him what he needs to do better, and give him the resources. If you don't know, or don't have the resources, invest in yourself so you can help them. The fact is, more kids are choosing travel (programs), more players commit from travel, more pro prospects come out of travel (due to the limited recruiting time to see high school or legion). All this conjecture about travel being evil...ok...well why is it growing so fast? Is it people love being lied to? Maybe they like throwing money down the drain, right? No, because people have a right to choose in a free country, and there is a value there. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I coached legion, I love legion, and everything it stands for, but it's not what it used to be. Not choosing sides, just stating the obvious.

Flame away.

 

[umdterpcock]

Originally posted by COHAZE:

Meanwhile, there is also a Third Tier tournament going on in the upstate this weekend. I am told they have around 16 teams ranging from 14u to 18u. Is this tournament worth going to? If you're just looking to get a few games in, maybe. But, who knows what kind of competition you will face. More importantly, if you're looking to get scouted at this tournament you're probably wasting your time and money.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Saw too much of this tournament this weekend. There's so much wrong with it.

First off that is too much baseball for 99% of these kids, parents dont know it but their kids are asking for umpires to end games so they can be done.

Secondly the parents stand behind the backstop and coach. Little do they know they aren't doing anything besides messing their own kid up even if what they are saying is right. Coaching is to be done prior to games, if they haven't learned it before they walk on the field, coaching them game day isn't going to help.

Thirdly, there is way too much criticism going on! I heard a "Dad" loudly tearing his kid apart. So much the kid stepped out of the box and glared at his dad.

There may be some good in the upper tiers of "travel ball", but I can assure you the only ones benefitting from the lower tiers is the people who put the tournament on.

I'd love to know how much parents spend on gas, food, and gate fees, not to mention how much it costs for their kid to be on the team. I can assure you it's not worth their money or time.

Say what you want about legion, but it's the best option, unless your kid is an elite player, and even then legion is still not a bad option. Show up in Sumter and watch the State tourney and you'll see the exposure these kids get. If a player is elite or very good they'll shine and the college and pro scouts notice. What else could you ask for? Legion is free for the players, and they actually play for something, not just meaningless games like travel ball.

 

[LeftyTosser]

I would agree that 25 years ago Legion was the greatest show in town for upper level baseball. Today, not so much. I have watched far too many 9 inning games with the winner being determined by which team actually had a pitcher that could stay interested at the end. Legion could be the hot ticket again, IF they would change some things. Far too many conversations on this site to get back into that discussion, but they need to realize that this is 2014 not 1965.

A lot of those third tier teams are out there only because the guys want to play ball. Tournament ball could also use a change in the upper age groups. Cut it back to one day events with 2 games guaranteed and 1 more for a championship. The guys would appreciate the 1 day event as would the parents and it would eliminate the watering down of pitching where a guy is throwing only because he still has an arm attached. It would also cut down on arm injuries because guys wouldn't be going back to back days without rest.

 

[carolinacombat]

Originally posted by umdterpcock:

Say what you want about legion, but it's the best option, unless your kid is an elite player, and even then legion is still not a bad option. Show up in Sumter and watch the State tourney and you'll see the exposure these kids get. If a player is elite or very good they'll shine and the college and pro scouts notice. What else could you ask for? Legion is free for the players, and they actually play for something, not just meaningless games like travel ball.

I had to read this a couple of times to make sure I was seeing correctly. Let me see if I can wrap my head around this,,,

1. Legion is the best option, unless you are an elite player
2. There is so much exposure at the state tourney (for the starters on the teams that actually make the tourney, what 10% of all legion players in SC, if you're lucky? And of those they almost all need to be class of 2015 or younger unless they want to walk on or go JUCO). So in reality you're looking at a very small group of players scouts would show up for.
3. Legion is free (or very cheap). So much so they can barely afford to pay coaches sometimes, and/or weekly travel expenses.
4. Legion players are playing for something...ok, don't get me wrong I know what legion is supposed to represent. I've coached legion over 10 years ago, I've been to five legion games in the last couple years. I see bad body language, cursing, poor management, players setting records for longest amount of time to get on and off the field, and players not showing up whenever they feel like it. Not to mention pitchers absolutely exhausted and throwing over 100 pitches regularly, only to come back in relief that same week! The Legionnaires I represented would turn over in their graves.
5. Travel ball games are meaningless. Which is correct if you don't account for development, exposure, and winning pool tournaments at D1 colleges like USC, Clemson, or other tournament World Series, or Perfect Game National Championships.

Keep on "fighting the good fight", that type of cognitive dissonance can only be found in psychology books.

 

[basenok]

There are pros and cons to both types of ball. There are no hidden players in today's world of internet. There are no stories of a blue chip player being found throwing a ball against the side of a barn in "BFE, South Carolina". If a kid can play, the college coaches know about him. High school coaches talk all the time to each other and word gets around. If a coach is interested in a kid, he will come check him out. Just had a local kid sign to play college ball and the kid has NEVER played travel ball. He got a scholarship, not a "preferred walk-on" spot or any other type of these "fake scholarships" that you see kids getting. Had another local kid get a full-ride (yes a full-ride) last year and has not played travel ball since age 13. Not saying one brand is better than the other, it's all about what you want to do. Legion is an "old school" type of baseball. Players have to show up everyday, play nine innings, the crowds are usually not very big, and the team may not be very good. It is very much like the college baseball experience. It requires dedication of time and effort over an extended period of time. Travel ball is an easy way to play the game. Most teams do not practice very much. The majority of the time a team spends together is social time running around a hotel on the weekend. It is meant to be that way. That is what makes it "fun". The parents enjoy the social aspect of 6-8 mini vacations each summer. Parents do not enjoy watching 9 innings of baseball on a Tuesday night, getting home at midnight, and having to get up and go to work the next morning. It does not make either right or wrong, it is about what the kid/parents want. I will say from personal experience, the travel ball does have the tendency to breed the "ego cancer" into kids and parents. Know a kid that is playing for a brand name "showcase" team this summer after spending last summer on the bench of a legion team. Mom and dad are sending word back to the coaches of how the kid is wearing it out at the plate and throwing no-hit innings. The kid is not good enough to start for the local high school as a junior, throws 72, and can't get around on 75mph fastball if his life depended on it. Mom and dad paid $2000 for him to get on a team that will stroke his ego, give him a false sense of the caliber of player he really is, and force the high school coach to have to deal with his ego (crap) next season. Legion does not tend to breed this type of attitude because it is not a lime-light brand of ball. I think this is one reason why so many players don't pan out in college. The college coach is not going to stroke that ego. The team gear you are issued gets old when you have got to get to the weight room at 5am. The work a player must put in to be successful at the college level resembles nothing going on in travel ball. In legion ball, if you ain't good enough, you ain't going to play much. The coach may end up having to tell your child he is not a very good player. In travel ball, you are going to play. The coach is not going to criticize the player too much. He wants the money. You are ENTITLED" to play. That's the reasoning behind "pay for play", otherwise is would be called "play if you're good enough" or "earn a position" or "Legion" or "college ball". No baseball is bad. "Pay for Play" is cheaper than bail any day (maybe not). I just wish the players/parents would keep it in perspective.

 

[umdterpcock]

Originally posted by carolinacombat:

Originally posted by umdterpcock:

Say what you want about legion, but it's the best option, unless your kid is an elite player, and even then legion is still not a bad option. Show up in Sumter and watch the State tourney and you'll see the exposure these kids get. If a player is elite or very good they'll shine and the college and pro scouts notice. What else could you ask for? Legion is free for the players, and they actually play for something, not just meaningless games like travel ball.

I had to read this a couple of times to make sure I was seeing correctly. Let me see if I can wrap my head around this,,,

1. Legion is the best option, unless you are an elite player
2. There is so much exposure at the state tourney (for the starters on the teams that actually make the tourney, what 10% of all legion players in SC, if you're lucky? And of those they almost all need to be class of 2015 or younger unless they want to walk on or go JUCO). So in reality you're looking at a very small group of players scouts would show up for.
3. Legion is free (or very cheap). So much so they can barely afford to pay coaches sometimes, and/or weekly travel expenses.
4. Legion players are playing for something...ok, don't get me wrong I know what legion is supposed to represent. I've coached legion over 10 years ago, I've been to five legion games in the last couple years. I see bad body language, cursing, poor management, players setting records for longest amount of time to get on and off the field, and players not showing up whenever they feel like it. Not to mention pitchers absolutely exhausted and throwing over 100 pitches regularly, only to come back in relief that same week! The Legionnaires I represented would turn over in their graves.
5. Travel ball games are meaningless. Which is correct if you don't account for development, exposure, and winning pool tournaments at D1 colleges like USC, Clemson, or other tournament World Series, or Perfect Game National Championships.

Keep on "fighting the good fight", that type of cognitive dissonance can only be found in psychology books.

Obviously you aren't watching the same legion league that I am. You've been to 5 games in the last few years and you've drawn a conclusion? NOTE: go to the state tournament, there are dozens of scouts there for most every game played, I've been there and seen them myself.

Yeah there are some teams that struggle and are a joke, and yes some of the coaches are idiots and over-use their pitchers BUT that's not the norm.

FYI, Ive not only seen college coaches from big time programs at games this year but have seen pro scouts as well.

Im sure you make some valid points, I have my opinion and Im not short on baseball knowledge or what value these families are getting for their money.

I heard a pretty good players dad (wouldn't call his kid elite, but close) earlier this year that he could have paid for 100% of at least 2 full years of his boys education without baseball money based on all the money he's spent chasing a dream.

Baseball isn't football where 85 kids per team get full scholarships. Really good players get 30%-50%, so you have to weigh your options carefully.

If you want to believe travel ball is the ticket, more power to you but it's my opinion that its only the upper tier players that get any benefit, the other tiers of travel ball is there for the tournament directors to make big buck$.

And by the way, I don't care what level ball you're playing, if the scouts are there they are there for a handful of players anyway, the rest are just hoping to catch lightning in a jar and have a big day and get on the radar. Even then if you don't have the measurables it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[carolinacombat]

Lots of broad generalizations in your post. Kids get offered playing travel that otherwise would risk not being seen if they were only playing HS or legion. HS and legion coaches jobs are to win games, so they keep their job. I respect and appreciate that 100%. I don't know how many college coaches have told me they almost never see legion unless they get a phone call from someone they trust, and the legion coach almost never carries a scout roster, so in case you have two other guys the scout may like on your legion club, they risk getting passed over due to this. What's more likely than the college coach to go to a legion game, is him telling the player to suit up for a travel team that's playing at the college/university that weekend.

The culture now in travel ball is that players/parents are paying for the opportunity to showcase their talent in high profile tournaments. They are given workouts and routines they can actually perform during the week, and manage it accordingly in case they have a summer job. I don't know if legion does this now and even if so, the quality. They pay for an opportunity so if they waste it it's on them. I don't mean they are entitled to play SS or bat cleanup. They get an opportunity to prove they can play, if they did not get cut. No guarantee of anything. Yes there are some travel teams behind the times, but so are some legion teams.

The D1 and other college guys used to just play legion after they commit because it's "cheap" and easy. Now they are running to travel teams so they can be in a program. They have options, and they get to choose. Whether you say legion is the best option because it's free, players realize the opportunity cost of doing so. How much is their baseball career worth? Are you going to tell modern Americans they should not have the right to choose what they want in a program and they have to stay put on their local legion team? As I said before much of legion's downfall is self inflicted. There are travel programs that stand for something and do things the right way. Kids get cut every year and some go play legion. There are good and bad travel clubs, just like legion. There are ways both could be waaaay better.

By God if I hadn't said anything this board may still be on a full on attack of travel, and it's wrong. If you've coached both at a high level then you should have an opinion. If not and you're just throwing crap at a wall to see what sticks then you need to take a step back and do a self evaluation.

 

[COHAZE]

Part of it is they WANT to play in SC because there are some quality programs here. But, part of it is this is a poor state. Most people simply cannot afford to send their kids to out of state colleges because of the higher tuition. That's one reason I have always questioned the value of a lot of out of state travel. 95% of SC kids are going to end up playing in SC, so why not focus on being seen here?

BUT, if your main/sole goal is to play higher level competition in hopes that it will make you better, or get you drafted, playing some of the PG events may make sense for you.

No kid grows up wanting to play at PC or Francis Marion or Lancaster. They want to play at the bigger schools. Kids and parents are often/usually unrealistic about their prospects. That's human nature. That dream of playing for Big State Univ. helps drive them to want to play for the "premier" teams, and to waste a lot of money on out of state events. It would be nice if parents and players were more realistic. But, it's their money. They can spend it however they choose.

Why is travel growing so fast? Several reasons, but one of the biggest is FEAR. Parents are afraid that little Timmy will be left behind. If Billy is doing it, Timmy shouldn't do it too? What really bugs me is some travel "programs" prey on this fear. Even after my son committed I had two premier travel programs try to scare me into letting him play on their teams.

I do agree with all of your comments about being straight with kids. They need that. They don't get enough of that. As I have said before, the right travel team may well be the best option for some kids.

Originally posted by carolinacombat:
Perfect Game, been there, done that, too. It all boils down to what you want. Most kids from this state want to play at in-state schools, for obvious reasons. .......... For a kid from SC, a chance to play at D1, D2, or JUCO school of interest on the weekend might be more enticing and efficient...again, if that's what they want.

The unfortunate part is when legion or travel ball coaches are interested in a kid they rarely ask what the player is looking for, they make it all about themselves and either legion or travel is evil (whichever one they are not coaching at the time) and it becomes about the coach's ego. Be straight with the young man. Tell him what would be required of him at each level, including academics, etc. Tell him what he needs to do better, and give him the resources. If you don't know, or don't have the resources, invest in yourself so you can help them. The fact is, more kids are choosing travel (programs), more players commit from travel, more pro prospects come out of travel (due to the limited recruiting time to see high school or legion). All this conjecture about travel being evil...ok...well why is it growing so fast? Is it people love being lied to? Maybe they like throwing money down the drain, right? No, because people have a right to choose in a free country, and there is a value there. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I coached legion, I love legion, and everything it stands for, but it's not what it used to be. Not choosing sides, just stating the obvious.

Flame away.

 

[DiamondKing32]

I was excited to see that another summer would not pass without this discussion.

I have had the opportunity to coach at the HSL, Legion, and Travel/Showcase Ball level, and have had experience with Legion in three different Post in two different parts of the state. They are NIGHT and DAY. I am with CC in that the Legionaires that were running the program when I played would not be happy, but that isn't the case at one of the post I have coached with.

I have coached travel ball now for almost 10 years now from 14U-17U, from the worst players, to some of the best around. I can tell you that we play some teams that are awful and respresent a complete waste of time and $$$ with everyone that is associated with them. The only plus side is the kids are playing the game.

This entire thread deviated greatly from where CoHaze started, but I can't say that I 100% agree with you because I think it depends on the organization you play in on whether your travel ball coach is going to provide you with the best bang for your buck. There is one in your area now that provides all his pitchers with workouts, drills, and other things throughout the summer and fall, and has developed some good HS arms in the process that have all had sucess at the next level.

Legion will continue to be an option. A good option for some, and a terrible option for others. Recently I came across a 2016 RHP that is uncommitted and pitches (not tops) at 83-85. That IMO is good enough to move to the next level (he does have good secondary stuff). His HSL summer team folded and his coach gave them a flyer for Legion. This kid would have wasted his time playing Legion ball this summer. He is right in the prime time to be seen by recruiters and in this particular circumstance he would have not been seen at all with Legion. He just finished pitching in the WWBA tournament and is now in Charleston with the CABA, and has thrown at numerous State schools all summer. Is he Elite? No. Has this summer given him a better opportunity? I would like to think so.

Every place is different, Every player is different, somethings fit, somethings dont. As long as kids are playing the game the way it is supposed to be played.

 

[COHAZE]

Just a few more comments about some of the points others have raised.

I have seen many of the problems with Legion ball pointed out by others. This year alone I have seen lackadaisical play and helmet throwing. I have seen teams struggling to field enough kids to play because of vacations, beach trips, etc. The lack of commitment is mind boggling. The powers that be continue to have their heads buried in the sand. Most teams do not have enough pitching to survive multiple 9 inning games per week. There are pitchers being overused on a regular basis. If my son were coming through again, he would not play Legion if he had to play for some of the idiots coaching around here.

I know there are some very good Legion programs around the state. Sumter still seems to be a good program. Derek Urquhart has done a great job with Florence. There are a few others. But, most Legion teams leave a lot to be desired, just like most travel teams.

We went to one state Legion tournament, and that was around 6 years ago. There were probably 8-10 scouts, including SC and C of C, there the first day. After day one the numbers dropped off considerably. Maybe things have changed since then. I've been to 5 or 6 Legion games this year. I have seen one scout, from the MLB scouting bureau, and I'm not really sure why he was there. (My guess is he was on the way back from Atlanta).

Legion may be a valid option, depending on the kid, the team, and the situation. AND, depending on what else he is going to do to develop/market himself. But, depending on the situation, travel ball could be a better option. Each case is different.

Any time anybody tells you a kid is getting a "full ride" I would tell them to "show me the money." That full ride may include lottery money and other academic money. I have even heard of kids getting "full rides" that included student loans. With the limited scholarships available, it really doesn't make sense for coaches to give a 100% baseball scholarship. And on the rare occasions that they do, it's usually an extremely high level pitching prospect.

 

[COHAZE]

Ain't that the truth. And it's probably my fault for using the word "showcasing" in the subject. My goal was to make parents and kids think, not re-start the Legion v. Travel debate. So, let me try again:



If you hope to play baseball in college you need a SIX (6) day per week plan, AND you need to work that plan.That plan should include getting exposure AND improving your skills and athleticism.If you're an aspiring pitcher, VELOCITY is the name of the game. You need to have a plan to maximize it. If you have no plan, you're relying on luck. Pitchers AND Position Players need to be on a DAILY shoulder program, such as Jaeger's or Crossover Symmetry, or even basic Jobe exercises or the The Throwers Ten.Aspiring pitchers, and position players who need to increase velocity, need to be long tossing 3 days a week.Long toss and shoulder exercises are not enough. You need to be on a YEAR ROUND conditioning program that includes plyometrics, medicine ball work, etc. If you're a position player, you probably need a similar plan to increase your velocity, foot speed, AND power. PLAYERS ARE MADE IN THE OFF SEASON. YOU NEED AN OFFSEASON TO DO A LOT OF THIS STUFF. Playing baseball every summer and fall may not always be your best option. Is all of the travel ball (or Legion) you are playing limiting your ability to develop facets of you game?
I am constantly amazed that many parents will spend thousands on travel, but nothing on training and conditioning. Again, I'm not trying to restart the travel debate. But, to give another example, I know a kid that spent two years on the B team of a big travel program. He probably hit .180 in the HS season, in large part because he is incredibly weak. But, the parents can't see that the kid needs to be in the gym more than he needs to be hanging out at the hotel pool all summer. My problem is not with the travel team as much as it is with the parents and the kids. I know another kid with light tower power, when he runs into one, which is rarely. He needs hitting instruction. Parents solution? Put him on a third tier travel team. I'm sorry, but that coaching he gets from the dugout while he's at bat ain't gonna cure his problem.

WAKE UP PEOPLE.

Originally posted by DiamondKing32:

This entire thread deviated greatly from where CoHaze started........

 

[Chicksdigmylongball]

Reality is that if you really want to play college baseball and are willing to put in the work to do it, there is a place for you to play no matter how good or bad you are. No school outside of DI will turn you away....they need your money. I know there are at least 6 D2 schools with JV teams. With the limited scholarships that the NCAA allows baseball, you're not going to get much anyway. Why waste thousands of dollars on a travel team that will never reap rewards. The best financial method of playing baseball in college in sc is to use that money to pay for a tutor. Achieve the Palmetto Fellow scholarship and go to the sc school of your choice essentially free. If it is one of those schools that have a JV team....you will not be turned away....heck if you are good enough you might play varsity

 

[carolinacombat]

You make great points. It's like telling people "hey, you should eat better to have a better quality of life and live longer", but do they do it? Most people don't. We live in a very relaxed and entitled time compared to prior generations. Heck some of our parents/grandparents didn't even have air conditioning growing up. Now people act as if they'll die if the room temp does not suit them.

Kids don't understand unless you explain it to them, even then many will say all the right things. Giving them the info and then watching what they DO will give you a better idea of who is going to rise and who is going to get left behind.

Just had a long discussion with a college coach about this very subject.

 

[umdterpcock]

Originally posted by Chicksdigmylongball:

Reality is that if you really want to play college baseball and are willing to put in the work to do it, there is a place for you to play no matter how good or bad you are. No school outside of DI will turn you away....they need your money. I know there are at least 6 D2 schools with JV teams. With the limited scholarships that the NCAA allows baseball, you're not going to get much anyway. Why waste thousands of dollars on a travel team that will never reap rewards. The best financial method of playing baseball in college in sc is to use that money to pay for a tutor. Achieve the Palmetto Fellow scholarship and go to the sc school of your choice essentially free. If it is one of those schools that have a JV team....you will not be turned away....heck if you are good enough you might play varsity

BINGO!!!!! There aren't that many players in the state with a true shot anyway, maybe 5-8 a year?

The points you make are why I think Legion is the best option for a majority of the players. If you can't make a legion team you shouldn't think about college ball anyway.

 

[DiamondKing32]

My suggestion to you then would be to watch more than the State Tournament and or your local Post, because I would imagine with this opinion the local Post is good, and it isn't that way in other places.

What benefits does an uncommitted Sophomore and or Junior in HS get from Legion baseball?

I was present at the district Legion meeting years ago and they mentioned it gets them ready for college baseball life. I can assure you that the summers I spent playing and coaching Legion baseball comepare NOTHING to what it was like in college. Only simularity was 9 innings.

 

[umdterpcock]

Originally posted by DiamondKing32:

My suggestion to you then would be to watch more than the State Tournament and or your local Post, because I would imagine with this opinion the local Post is good, and it isn't that way in other places.

What benefits does an uncommitted Sophomore and or Junior in HS get from Legion baseball?

I was present at the district Legion meeting years ago and they mentioned it gets them ready for college baseball life. I can assure you that the summers I spent playing and coaching Legion baseball comepare NOTHING to what it was like in college. Only simularity was 9 innings.

I think it does differ from Post to Post and region to region. If they combine Legion with some DP events and play in the DP fall league, they'll get enough exposure if there talent level is high enough.

Great talent just doesn't fall through the cracks because they play Legion ball. And if they are playing with other players that are getting exposure then you benefit from that as well.

The pay back on the parents investment just isn't there for 85% (or more) of the players.

 

[LeftyTosser]

One thing that seems to get lost in all of this conversation about where to play and the benefit towards scholarship money is that for the majority of the kids playing high level travel baseball, they do it to play against the BEST. The higher level you compete against, the better prepared you are to play at the next level. With a few exceptions, Legion ball just isn't what is was even 10 years ago. At the same time, local tournament ball isn't the same either.

For these guys to find strong competition they have to travel. To challenge them when they play, they need to either play up in age bracket or travel to find good competition. Playing up isn't always possible since most tournaments stop at 18&U and most of these guys aren't interested in playing old man baseball in the 30&U leagues. Sorry, but in our area Legion ball is not much better than good JV ball.

 

[umdterpcock]

Originally posted by LeftyTosser:
One thing that seems to get lost in all of this conversation about where to play and the benefit towards scholarship money is that for the majority of the kids playing high level travel baseball, they do it to play against the BEST. The higher level you compete against, the better prepared you are to play at the next level. With a few exceptions, Legion ball just isn't what is was even 10 years ago. At the same time, local tournament ball isn't the same either.

For these guys to find strong competition they have to travel. To challenge them when they play, they need to either play up in age bracket or travel to find good competition. Playing up isn't always possible since most tournaments stop at 18&U and most of these guys aren't interested in playing old man baseball in the 30&U leagues. Sorry, but in our area Legion ball is not much better than good JV ball.

Im guessing you're from the Greenville area? Go tell Tyler Thornton that he's not much better than good JV ball. Think he'd laugh at you.

 

[COHAZE]

Legion plus some DP events may well be enough for some kids. A single DP event alone will be enough for a few, but not many. It can certainly work for pitchers throwing upper 80's. But some kids need more exposure. If a kid is going to play Legion only he may need to plan on multiple DP events over several years. He should also look at the SCBCA showcase. Yeah, it's mostly small schools, but it's dirt cheap. As Chicks pointed out, he should also look at camps.

If you look at travel, or showcases, as purely a return on investment issue, you're going to be disappointed. I think 85% is a conservative number. My guess is probably 95% of people whose kids play travel ball for multiple years do not recoup their "investment." HOWEVER, I don't think most parents look at it from the standpoint of a financial investment. They're simply trying help their kid live a dream. This may seem like a bad "investment" to some, but that's their business.

As someone else pointed out, dang near every kid in this state has a better chance of getting his education paid for through academics than he does baseball. Academics should always be Plan A. But, if they have the money and they want to spend a chunk of it on baseball, that's their right.

You're right, great talent does not fall through the cracks because kids play Legion. But, you don't see many great talents in S.C., be it Legion or Travel.

Originally posted by umdterpcock:

I think it does differ from Post to Post and region to region. If they combine Legion with some DP events and play in the DP fall league, they'll get enough exposure if there talent level is high enough.

Great talent just doesn't fall through the cracks because they play Legion ball. And if they are playing with other players that are getting exposure then you benefit from that as well.

The pay back on the parents investment just isn't there for 85% (or more) of the players.

 

[COHAZE]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you a little. Kids in SC grow up wanting to play at SC, Clemson, and/or MLB. Period. Yeah, some kids get frustrated playing weak teams and turn to travel for the competition. I don't know that many kids playing higher level travel, but I don't think most turn to it for that reason. I don't think their reasoning is as sophisticated as yours. They just look at it as the magic bullet that will get them to their ultimate goal of high level D1 or MLB. The competition aspect is more of a secondary benefit. I know I'm splitting hairs here, but I just don't think that many kids are hung up on the competition aspect.

I'm also gonna disagree a little with the comparison to JV ball. That's definitely true of some teams. But, teams like Union, Inman and Spartanburg are more comparable to mid level HS varsity teams. Some years they are better than most of the local HS teams, but not this year.




Originally posted by LeftyTosser:
One thing that seems to get lost in all of this conversation about where to play and the benefit towards scholarship money is that for the majority of the kids playing high level travel baseball, they do it to play against the BEST. The higher level you compete against, the better prepared you are to play at the next level. With a few exceptions, Legion ball just isn't what is was even 10 years ago. At the same time, local tournament ball isn't the same either.

For these guys to find strong competition they have to travel. To challenge them when they play, they need to either play up in age bracket or travel to find good competition. Playing up isn't always possible since most tournaments stop at 18&U and most of these guys aren't interested in playing old man baseball in the 30&U leagues. Sorry, but in our area Legion ball is not much better than good JV ball.

 

[LeftyTosser]

COHAZE, I think you might be surprised at how many of the upper level travel team players are there because they want to play with and against the best. I've worked with the high school age group for quite awhile and the better ones I know certainly feel that way. These guys play with players from across the country, not just SC or the southeast. They don't play a ton of tournaments, but the ones they do play are some awesome baseball.

To the MD Terrapin poster, yes I spend time in the Greenville area and Legion around here stinks. By the way, Tyler didn't get into college baseball based on Legion ball. He got into college ball because he worked his tail off, focused on improving his game and got in front of the right people. He played Legion because that is what he wanted to do. And if you can only come up with one name off the top of your head, that kind of proves my point doesn't it?

 

[foulball2]

This post was edited on 7/17 8:27 AM by foulball2

 

[umdterpcock]

This post was edited on 7/17 8:57 AM by umdterpcock