Observed today: team shows up to wrestle with 8 kids, 2 whom do not make weight. Young program trying to get the sport rolling. Travels 2 hours and watches the first match and then begins warming up. Eager to be there but they know they can't win as a team. Other team has about 20 kids with some depth at some classes. At match time, other team forfeits out all 6 weights and takes the forfeits in the remaining 8 not allowing a single match to be wrestled. Look of disappointment and hurt on these young guys who made the trip on a Saturday to get better to not be given a match. I understand strategy in preventing injuries and what not, but is this the right thing to do to these athletes? Just wanting some input.
Thoughts on Strategy/ethics
- Thread starter TheBranch2009
- Start date
If you have backups i can see letting them get mat time but sending a stud out their to get injured knowing you have another match afterwards especially the crazy way AA-A runs there upperstate duals. Crescent, Chesnee and Liberty drove 2 1/2 hrs or more to wrestle each other and drive 2 1/2 hrs back home. I guess im just not a fan of that format but i understand why others are.
Inexcusable if they have a large team as stated earlier. Let the back ups in. If we don't look out for each other how can we expect respect from other sports, parents, administration etc. They probably set that team back a good bit morale wise.
Would love to know who this was. Those are the type of people I have no desire to ever be around. That kind of disrespect and lack of class really speaks volumes of the character of the coach and what he is teaching his wrestlers. But let me stop and hold back because maybe there is more to the story
AA format had nothing to do with the post. Pretty sure north Central wrestled liberty and crecent vs Cheraw. Write a proposal, gain support, give it to your AD, have it passed in March AD's/ principles rules meeting
Can't speak for the AA-A playoffs but 4A needs to scale it back to maybe the top 3 or even top 2 per region qualifying for the playoffs and do what AA-A does where they get it all done in one day.
4 seeds and wild cards have no business being in the playoffs and even some 3 seeds could stand to stay home as well. If you want get it down to a 32 team bracket but with only 24 teams in the mix. Give all the region champs their host site privilege and let them all have a first round bye while the other 2 teams at the site wrestle first.
With that being said if 4A and 3A are going to continue to run a 32 team bracket the way they are then they need to do a seeded bracket like in football and not one where you have some of the top 5 / top 10 teams seeing each other in the first 2 rounds. Keep the 4 site deal in tact but seed the bracket via either some kind of coaches vote / seed meeting. And no I'm not a rock hill, dorman, boiling springs, fort mill fan (those 4 are all in the top 4 and were all 2nd round match ups yesterday).
Saw a lot of elbows and arms get jacked up yesterday in team matches where the outcome was really never in doubt. No point in ending your individual season during a dual match that is meaningless.
4 seeds and wild cards have no business being in the playoffs and even some 3 seeds could stand to stay home as well. If you want get it down to a 32 team bracket but with only 24 teams in the mix. Give all the region champs their host site privilege and let them all have a first round bye while the other 2 teams at the site wrestle first.
With that being said if 4A and 3A are going to continue to run a 32 team bracket the way they are then they need to do a seeded bracket like in football and not one where you have some of the top 5 / top 10 teams seeing each other in the first 2 rounds. Keep the 4 site deal in tact but seed the bracket via either some kind of coaches vote / seed meeting. And no I'm not a rock hill, dorman, boiling springs, fort mill fan (those 4 are all in the top 4 and were all 2nd round match ups yesterday).
Saw a lot of elbows and arms get jacked up yesterday in team matches where the outcome was really never in doubt. No point in ending your individual season during a dual match that is meaningless.
Understand your concern. However; the playoffs are about winning and staying healthy. The issues or problems with a team are not the fault of the other. Teams don't start the season with a plan to compete in the first round. Their plan is or should be to wrestle the last round. Although it may not seem "sporting" having a
Kid get hurt in a match that is not necessrry is a risk that does not have to be taken. Happened in our first round match yesterday. Very good kid was hurt and could not finish.
Our sport has greater issues to address...
1. Playoff start times...should be universal across the board and should not be set by the home team. Some teams have to travel hours to get there, almost forcing them to incur a hotel expense in order to be sure that they are on time for a 9:00 weigh in, and additional time in case anyone is over or scales are dramatically different. A standard noon start time should be mandated by schsl. Imagine if the team you mentioned had incurred $800 in hotel cost the night before
2. Playoff seeding and turnaround. Wrestling is a tough, sometimes brutal contact sport, however we have an insanely fast system of duals. If a kid popped an ankle on Saturday he has to be recovered by Monday in order to compete. Does not happen in other sports where those kinds of possibilities are at a much higher level. Seed the tournament like it used to be years ago. Pre- determined brackets are just an easy system to use by the HSL.
3. Officials...our officials have gotten much better thanks to a self implemented evaluation system. However; some of the changes are hurting us. Paying same rate for middle school vs. varsity is crazy. Paying full dual rates for four jv matches, again crazy. Paying head ref for "evaluating and managing events" absolutely nuts. Principals and AD need to address this and officially get it changed. Finally one that I have not seen in a while...in our dual Saturday had two officials rotating head and assistant. I did not even realize they were doing that until about the fifth match. Crazy different calls and absolute unwillingness to change anything when asked to conference the assistant. Stopping pinning combinations because they were "tight". Routine bars and halves being stopped.. One kid totally planted through the mat...no pin call. Same match, other kid puts him on his back with enough daylight to drive a truck through and the fall is called almost immediately..Point here is giant differences in what is typically routine stuff vs what was being called, stopped, or disallowed.
Agree....if you have some extra guys use them as much as possible in the first dual.m we used a couple of the insurers round match.
Hold on folks....what you are proposing right now sounds a lot like a form of government that our country has fought against for years all over the world. A more simple comparison would be the brilliant idea of our "president". ...Obamacare, which says...you will have health insurance and we will govern when and how you get it, regardless of cost to their people, companies, or families.
So what you are proposing is a plan where the ScHSL determines how many matches we have to wrestle or something to that effect. That is a slippery slope.
As the great Bobby Bowden once said "the other team is not my problem"
I'm all about sportsmanship and health of the sport, but most programs aren't ran to be sure that the other team feels good about things. Certainly use back up kids when at all possible ..but it needs to be left up the the discretion of the coach who was hired to run the program....not AD, principal, or HSL
Believe me, there are far greater "atrocities" taking place in events and programs than this
Over the years many teams have forfeited out in the playoffs and finals when they achieve a numerically insurmountable lead. Personally I hate this even though I was on the staff of a team that did this in the 2003 4A finals. To this day one of the wrestlers, and his father, who did not have the chance to compete still resents this. The kids should have a chance to make memories whether they have a chance at a team/individual win or not. And as a fan, this is horrible for the sport. I understand the thinking by the coach, but you can't predict injuries.
BTW, several years ago I had the opportunity to call the state dual finals for the SCHSL webcast. My broadcast partner had only seen a wrestling match the year prior, but was quickly becoming a fan. When one team did this, he was disgusted. Made a point to say that the finals, and playoffs for that matter, were the best chance to "hook" the casual fan, but that nobody will appreciate not seeing matches. And the kids that didn't get to participate will have less of a memory.
BTW, several years ago I had the opportunity to call the state dual finals for the SCHSL webcast. My broadcast partner had only seen a wrestling match the year prior, but was quickly becoming a fan. When one team did this, he was disgusted. Made a point to say that the finals, and playoffs for that matter, were the best chance to "hook" the casual fan, but that nobody will appreciate not seeing matches. And the kids that didn't get to participate will have less of a memory.
I agree with JYMF and I am also happy this year the 4th seeds were allowed to compete. Just never know what the season holds. Injuries, skin, etc, you never know when that can hit a team at any given time. And it can drastically alter good teams during their region competition. Plus some 3 and 4 seed teams in certain regions would be region champs or runner ups in other regions.
Oh and btw we had to pay $504 for hotels cause of 9am weigh in.....
Oh and btw we had to pay $504 for hotels cause of 9am weigh in.....
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Did you ask for a later time? Couple of years back, my AD wanted us to start early for the early rounds (we were hosting), and JYMF didn't want to arrive so early. So we didn't. I assured our AD that we weren't going to be there that late (we weren't very good, but neither was our region), so we went with the time he wanted ( I think, I told our AD that I didn't care when we started), and if anyone else had a concern, we would adapt anyways. Our sport is still too small to spend our time going out of our way to be a jerk to one another when it isn't necessary. If we're going to grow, we have to remember what's really most important, and it usually isn't us, but each other. There's a proper way to win, and there's nothing better than winning when you've done it the RIGHT way.
That tends to be the issue. Some schools will go with a later start, while others won't. My point again is that it should not be up to the host school. It should be a standard start time, established by the HSL. As mentioned earlier, we have greater issues to address in order to make our sport "grow" like many have mentioned here. I will mention a few issues, but certainly do not have time to discuss on a message board as I could go on for days about these things...
1. Coaches Salaries. Why do young, quality coaches get out of the sport after just a few years? Because they are paid like second class citizens and can not justify the time when real life hits ( marriage, kids, bills) BTW..this would also apply to track, VB, SB, tennis,soccer, baseball, and most other "non revenue" sports. As they see the latest/greatest FB coach being paid like a king to "teach" two classes, and run a program that includes 12 assistants that make three times what he makes, it gets a bit discouraging. The "football makes the money" excuse has been tired as hell for a long time. Keep in mind, coaches supplements in most districts are a budgeted item paid for by taxpayers....not football ticket sales.
2. Facilities...Every other sport has a generally safe and functional practice location. Think about how many wrestling programs are practicing in hallways, mobile units, off campus, elementary schools, cafeterias, etc.. I will say that this is not just the fault of the admin and district. This is also because wrestling coaches, parents, supporters, etc.. have tolerated it for almost 50 years since sanctioned wrestling started in SC. People need to grow a spine and demand that their kids are provided equal opportunity (yes this does get into some Title IX issues and violations and not necessarily only related to gender equity), safe, functional facilities. When a district decides to offer the sport, they are then liable for the supervision and responsible management of it. Now, when I say demand, you have to tread lightly there. The better approach is to gain community support of taxpaying parents and leaders who realize the benefits of the sport, as well as the legal ramifications of poor or no facilities. Then take that case to the school board and admin.
3. State Level Management and Governance...SCHSL needs to step up and make our sport a real priority and not just another season to "get through" as we lay out the red carpet and wait on spring FB practice, two a days, and who's the next big FB recruit, or coach to be paid another triple figure salary. If money is at issue regarding the state tournament, then allow the coaches assoc to step in and help. Consider this.... Pretend that we are all ( A,AA, AAA, AAAA) one "team." Each team is asked to raise $1000.00 to support our state tournament each season. each team has an average of 25 kids. How many teams do we have? I'm really not sure but it is at least 100. Do the math.
Would each team actually raise $1000...no. But because we are a team, some would raise $5,000 and help cover the short end where some did not reach the goal. It's the Joe got majored, so I have to get the tech fall to make up for the point we gave up there.
Would this happen? Probably not. But, my point is that it can be done; although it should not have to fall solely in the hands of the coaches or association.
Other issues as well..... for a later time
This year I was not in the situation where I could have decided when to start, but in the years past I have always considered the travel times of the teams scheduled to travel to my school. It may not be a rule but it is best practice.