A change in venue?

[SprawlANDStall]

A family member of mine was talking about the Anderson civic center the other day, because they came and watched the state tournament there. Using words to describe it as "dirty" , and "smelly". Granted there was a bunch of sweaty teenage boys wrestling for 2 days straight. But I personally can agree. The place is fairly old, which isn't bad IF they renovate, which definitely hasn't happened since the 90s, or longer by looking at it. I'm not sure how the change in venue takes by the years, but dang it! WHY CAN'T THE YOUNG MEN WRESTLE IN THE BON SECOURS WELLNESS ARENA??!!! A place where things are newer, nicer. Look at every other state, most the venues are much bigger and nicer. Not held in a beaten down civic center. But in a arena of some sorts. Which means more mats, which means a faster tournament. I realize upper state basketball games are played there, but shoot what about wrestling?

 

[SButler]

They really need to find a more central location. I don't believe the state tournament should be held at any extreme portion of the state. Having in the upstate isn't really practical for a majority of the state.

 

[BuckkillerSC]

I would drive anywhere if the overall experience for the wrestlers was improved. I hear the new venue at Myrtle Beach would be really nice for this type tournament plus it's not Anderson. There's more for the family's to do at Myrtle Beach, it's not crowded in the winter and plenty of places to stay.
If it was changed to Myrtle Beach we could send the really good refs the MB and send the rest to Anderson. I know, I know, there would be many refs at MB but we could get by.

 

[SButler]

Myrtle Beach is probably more central then Greenville, but I agree with you, a venue that will provide a better experience for the wrestlers and fans should be the first priority.

 

[BulldogZ91]

A family member of mine was talking about the Anderson civic center the other day, because they came and watched the state tournament there. Using words to describe it as "dirty" , and "smelly". Granted there was a bunch of sweaty teenage boys wrestling for 2 days straight. But I personally can agree. The place is fairly old, which isn't bad IF they renovate, which definitely hasn't happened since the 90s, or longer by looking at it. I'm not sure how the change in venue takes by the years, but dang it! WHY CAN'T THE YOUNG MEN WRESTLE IN THE BON SECOURS WELLNESS ARENA??!!! A place where things are newer, nicer. Look at every other state, most the venues are much bigger and nicer. Not held in a beaten down civic center. But in a arena of some sorts. Which means more mats, which means a faster tournament. I realize upper state basketball games are played there, but shoot what about wrestling?

It's not just wrestling weekend...the place is dirty and smelly all year. I just went there about 2 months ago to pick my daughter up. They were having club volleyball practice in the same area as the wrestling. As soon as you walk in the door it smells like urine lol! They'll never have it downtown Gville, it simply will not bring in enough $$$ to pay the bills at the Well, IMO. It'd be nice to have it at Littlejohn or Timmons but it's still bball season. If the Slam is so successful at Eastside why not have it there or at a school comparable in size like Dorman, TL Hanna, etc? If you want it out of the upstate the only logical choice for being centrally located would be in Cola. Could it not be at one of the schools around Cola? Heck what about a place like Wando? As many students as they have do they not have a large venue?

 

[tony_forte]

It's shouldn't be about a central location- it needs to be about a proper venue that is suitable for the event. If it's done properly and a good experience for both the wrestlers and fans, people will attend. I wouldn't want the State Tournament at the Anderson Civic Center even if I lived down the road from it.

 

[swutiger]

I'd like to see the ROI breakout for the upperstate basketball championship games at the Well and compare that with the ACC. Is there a public budget for the SCHSL?

 

[TroyBowe]

From what I understand, the SCHSL is profiting anywhere from 20-30K per year on the wrestling tournament held at the ACC. That profit, for paying for and dropping off medals and t-shirts. They do not have any other involvement with the tourney whatsoever.

TBowe

 

[BulldogZ91]

From what I understand, the SCHSL is profiting anywhere from 20-30K per year on the wrestling tournament held at the ACC. That profit, for paying for and dropping off medals and t-shirts. They do not have any other involvement with the tourney whatsoever.

TBowe

Wow...I don't see how they could make profit. The ACC is in the red pretty much every year. They must "give it to SCHSL". Matter of fact, the Council is always moving money around to pay the bills for that place.

 

[ParTerre57]

From what I understand, the SCHSL is profiting anywhere from 20-30K per year on the wrestling tournament held at the ACC. That profit, for paying for and dropping off medals and t-shirts. They do not have any other involvement with the tourney whatsoever.

TBowe

Whoa.

Just did a bit of research and had ZERO clue that the SCHSL was not an official government organization. The argument, I would imagine, is that it is a psuedo public entity based on the membership dues (mandatory) of member schools coming from public funds.

That opens up an interesting question regarding the need for a "sanctioned" state wrestling tournament thru the SCHSL.

 

[SButler]

Weekend Tournament. Large Venue, U6 up to HS with one classification for HS. HS Finals and placement matches Saturday night, U6-U14 placement and Finals matches Sunday.

With covering youth through HS the increased number of wrestlers/spectators might allow the flexibility to secure a better venue, and would be pretty cool having it all in the same place in one weekend. Coaches Association, SCYWA, SC USA Wrestling, etc all pooling resources could probably create an event that would special for wrestlers and wrestling fans.

 

[TroyBowe]

Wow...I don't see how they could make profit. The ACC is in the red pretty much every year. They must "give it to SCHSL". Matter of fact, the Council is always moving money around to pay the bills for that place.

HSL pays the ACC for the rental of the facility and then has a deal worked out for a % of all the revenue streams for the event. Entry fees, concession, attendance, etc.. ACC gets all the security, hotel rooms, and any other costs associated with the event. This is the main reason the HSL has no incentive to move the event.

However, Par Terre brings up an interesting point. What if the coaches association along with the officials association runs the individual portion of the "state tournament"? The HSL only recognizes a dual champ anyway. They would prefer not to have an indy tourney.. The associations could come together and run the event how they choose. One class, two classes, whatever. The big question would be liability. Can the event be insured?

Any thoughts?

TBowe

 

[BuckkillerSC]

HSL pays the ACC for the rental of the facility and then has a deal worked out for a % of all the revenue streams for the event. Entry fees, concession, attendance, etc.. ACC gets all the security, hotel rooms, and any other costs associated with the event. This is the main reason the HSL has no incentive to move the event.

However, Par Terre brings up an interesting point. What if the coaches association along with the officials association runs the individual portion of the "state tournament"? The HSL only recognizes a dual champ anyway. They would prefer not to have an indy tourney.. The associations could come together and run the event how they choose. One class, two classes, whatever. The big question would be liability. Can the event be insured?

Any thoughts?

TBowe

What if we just let the coaches association take care of the tournament plus pick the officials? The majority of officials have lost credibility in this state. The officials needs to earn everyone's trust back. Right now, only a small percentage is trusted.

 

[TroyBowe]

What if we just let the coaches association take care of the tournament plus pick the officials? The majority of officials have lost credibility in this state. The officials needs to earn everyone's trust back. Right now, only a small percentage is trusted.

The coaches association does have a representative on the committee that picks the tournament officials. They also still have an evaluation piece in Arbiter that they can fill out after every match or tournament. Most (if not all) choose not to fill these out.

I said a combined effort since the coaches will still be coaching which will limit their time to organize a tournament. Some officials will have more time to put into the event (venue, program ads, marketing, etc.) Plus, you can't run a tournament without officials and I am fairly confident the coaches would want officials who are in the officials association. I would say let the coaches have input for sure. Heck, even more than they do now. But, be careful, a big conflict of interest if you only let the coaches decide who refs. That is why the officials have evaluators who do not ref anymore who are picking officials. No conflict of interest.

If this thing could work, the indy portion of the state championships could be improved (ie. No more 4 classes). Not sure the Principals and ADs would go for this, but the coaches need to be united to push for it. If the Principals & ADs say no, it won't happen.

TBowe

 

[JYMF]

Whoa.

Just did a bit of research and had ZERO clue that the SCHSL was not an official government organization. The argument, I would imagine, is that it is a psuedo public entity based on the membership dues (mandatory) of member schools coming from public funds.

That opens up an interesting question regarding the need for a "sanctioned" state wrestling tournament thru the SCHSL.

Parrterre.... The SCHSL is actually a separate entity that is contracted/hired by the SC Dept. of Education to govern high school athletics in our state.
By doing this it takes it out of the hands of the districts and schools, thereby releasing them of a HUGE responsibility in the routine operations.
The SCDE prefers/chooses not to become involved in anything that does not directly impact the EDUCATION of a student. Extra-curricular are not their preferred area of expertise.

Honestly, considering the state of affairs with our sport and the SCHSL, there is A LOT of room for improvement.

 

[ParTerre57]

Parrterre.... The SCHSL is actually a separate entity that is contracted/hired by the SC Dept. of Education to govern high school athletics in our state.
By doing this it takes it out of the hands of the districts and schools, thereby releasing them of a HUGE responsibility in the routine operations.
The SCDE prefers/chooses not to become involved in anything that does not directly impact the EDUCATION of a student. Extra-curricular are not their preferred area of expertise.

Honestly, considering the state of affairs with our sport and the SCHSL, there is A LOT of room for improvement.

Yeah, that's what I gathered from my small amount of digging. I just had no idea.

I'm seeing articles from 2012 where some legislation was on the table to abolish the relationship with SCHSL and bring athletics in-house by the SC Department of Education. Not saying that would improve much of anything (hello bureaucracy) but I have to think that would increase the amount of fiscal transparency from the governing organization, whatever it may be. Provided that 20-30k profit is correct for the product we were given two weeks ago, I'd say that's an issue.

As an aside, SCHSL is in the red since 2012 according to several non-profit reporting sites I checked.

 

[D11WrestBest]

SCHSL is similar to almost all other states associations that handle sports (PIAA, NJSIAA, NYSPHSAA, etc). Most are non-profit organizations associated with the states education system. I am pretty sure that the SCHSL is not pulling any where near the profit Troy states on here.

In regards to the idea of bringing the youth in to this...everyone is talking about it already being run like a youth tournament and hating it...definitely not the venue for an idea like this. As a matter of fact we should be promoting this event out the butt to have as many youth wrestlers as possible at this event as spectators. This is what dreams are made of...or at least it should be. Go to a state tournament in the North and see how many youth are there...it is a 3 or 4 day event that youth are pulled out of school for!!! This is part of the way to build the sport. If this is done, the venue that will hold it will have to be updated!!!

As far as refs go...as long as we don't have to pay the outrageous fees that we have to through the year for them...that will be a start. I agree they need to be compensated for what they do, but it is getting way out of hand, especially since some are not improving themselves on the mat. Don't get me wrong, there are many good ones out there, but there are also many that are showing up for the $$$$...WRONG REASON TO BE A REFEREE IN THIS SPORT!!!! This is a sport that you do it for the love of the sport and the kids. I run a lot of tournaments through the year, and work with a lot of refs through the year. I am fortunate enough to be around a great deal of them that are here for the right reason and work to get better at. There are a few that I have seen that I hope never step on the mat, but I have no control of that. Can just hope they work to get better.

I know a lot of great refs in PA that would move here just for the $$$$ our refs make...some of them have their minds blown when I talk to them. If you want the SCHSL involved, they need to look in to this aspect of wrestling. It is getting to the point where it is getting hard to host a tournament and cut a profit with the cost going out to refs for these tournaments. And for those who Ref, I hope you take this the right way...I truly appreciate the ones I get for my tournaments, but it is a struggle over the past 2 years to continue to host without killing teams with registration fees to cover it.

Also, this is the first year that the SCHSL raised their entry fee in a while...it went from $25 per team to $25 per wrestler with a $100 max. So they are trying to offset costs as well.

 

[BulldogZ91]

...As far as refs go...as long as we don't have to pay the outrageous fees that we have to through the year for them...that will be a start. I agree they need to be compensated for what they do, but it is getting way out of hand, especially since some are not improving themselves on the mat. Don't get me wrong, there are many good ones out there, but there are also many that are showing up for the $$$$...WRONG REASON TO BE A REFEREE IN THIS SPORT!!!! This is a sport that you do it for the love of the sport and the kids. I run a lot of tournaments through the year, and work with a lot of refs through the year. I am fortunate enough to be around a great deal of them that are here for the right reason and work to get better at. There are a few that I have seen that I hope never step on the mat, but I have no control of that. Can just hope they work to get better.

I know a lot of great refs in PA that would move here just for the $$$$ our refs make...some of them have their minds blown when I talk to them. If you want the SCHSL involved, they need to look in to this aspect of wrestling. It is getting to the point where it is getting hard to host a tournament and cut a profit with the cost going out to refs for these tournaments. And for those who Ref, I hope you take this the right way...I truly appreciate the ones I get for my tournaments, but it is a struggle over the past 2 years to continue to host without killing teams with registration fees to cover it.

Complaining about the refs is like beating a dead horse. Yes, it stinks but you can basically insert a sport name and there's always going to be complaints about officiating. Some of these guys are absolutely doing for the paycheck as a little side cash. Why, I have no clue! I wouldn't put up with some of the crap these guys do to make a little side $$$. Heck, I see some of the same guys calling softball, church bball, HS bball and yes even wrestling! That brings me to my point, you guys that are so adamant about better refs maybe should look into getting certified. I'm not being an ass, but have any of you that aren't coaches ever looked into getting certified? You all seem to be really knowledgeable and obviously your passion and dedication to the sport shows by your support and comments. Until there's enough quality refs organizations like the SCHSL & others have to take what they can get.

If it were up to me, for state championship events across the board, I'd roll the dice and bring in out of state refs and go from there.

 

[TroyBowe]

SCHSL is similar to almost all other states associations that handle sports (PIAA, NJSIAA, NYSPHSAA, etc). Most are non-profit organizations associated with the states education system. I am pretty sure that the SCHSL is not pulling any where near the profit Troy states on here.

In regards to the idea of bringing the youth in to this...everyone is talking about it already being run like a youth tournament and hating it...definitely not the venue for an idea like this. As a matter of fact we should be promoting this event out the butt to have as many youth wrestlers as possible at this event as spectators. This is what dreams are made of...or at least it should be. Go to a state tournament in the North and see how many youth are there...it is a 3 or 4 day event that youth are pulled out of school for!!! This is part of the way to build the sport. If this is done, the venue that will hold it will have to be updated!!!

As far as refs go...as long as we don't have to pay the outrageous fees that we have to through the year for them...that will be a start. I agree they need to be compensated for what they do, but it is getting way out of hand, especially since some are not improving themselves on the mat. Don't get me wrong, there are many good ones out there, but there are also many that are showing up for the $$$$...WRONG REASON TO BE A REFEREE IN THIS SPORT!!!! This is a sport that you do it for the love of the sport and the kids. I run a lot of tournaments through the year, and work with a lot of refs through the year. I am fortunate enough to be around a great deal of them that are here for the right reason and work to get better at. There are a few that I have seen that I hope never step on the mat, but I have no control of that. Can just hope they work to get better.

I know a lot of great refs in PA that would move here just for the $$$$ our refs make...some of them have their minds blown when I talk to them. If you want the SCHSL involved, they need to look in to this aspect of wrestling. It is getting to the point where it is getting hard to host a tournament and cut a profit with the cost going out to refs for these tournaments. And for those who Ref, I hope you take this the right way...I truly appreciate the ones I get for my tournaments, but it is a struggle over the past 2 years to continue to host without killing teams with registration fees to cover it.

Also, this is the first year that the SCHSL raised their entry fee in a while...it went from $25 per team to $25 per wrestler with a $100 max. So they are trying to offset costs as well.

Todd,

We are finally being paid at a rate competitive to our surrounding states (we are still behind FL and GA for pay). Prior to the raise of 3 years ago, I believe it had been 15 years since the previous raise. Don't have time to look up inflation in that 15 year period but lets just say I'm pretty sure it was well over 10% (on very conservative side). I'm guessing nobody who did the same job for those 15 years went without a raise. Wrestling officials did.

Also built into our agreement with the HSL was a 7% increase in fees every 3 years. Call it a COL adjustment. Not uncommon in many contract negotiations. This was to be the first year of the raise under the new agreement. The HSL did not honor the agreement that their executive committee signed and agreed to. What would happen if we refused to officiate because they broke the agreement? I know, I know, some of you would stand up and cheer! But, we could shut down the sport in the state if that was our choice. We didn't. People complain about the fees now because we were so cheap for so long that they got spoiled. Now they are paying the going market rate.

I got the dollar figure straight from Todd M. about what he sends to the HSL each year. Maybe I misunderstood, but I did try to clarify several times and that is what I understand. 20-30K per year to the HSL.

BTW, I appreciate all you do for wrestling in SC and the great job you guys do running tournaments.

Bulldog,

Out of state refs would have to join our association and pay the dues. etc.. Who is going to contact them? Who is going to "hire" them? In other words, how do we know which ones to bring to our state tournament?

TBowe

 

[BulldogZ91]

Bulldog, Out of state refs would have to join our association and pay the dues. etc.. Who is going to contact them? Who is going to "hire" them? In other words, how do we know which ones to bring to our state tournament?

TBowe

T - is there not a national governing body like NFHS or AAAU (maybe not a good example) that certifies officials across the board? Meaning there's no joining this association or that one, certifying in separate states, etc. Any type of dues or registrations are paid to get nationally certified to officiate? I know that may drive up the cost but as a casual observer it seems paying a little more to get better quality may not be out of the realm of possibility.

Let me say this to make sure you understand I'm not dog piling, Thank You for your contribution to the sport. I've coached rec sports since '07, attended HS sports and college wrestling matches and I don't know that I'd climb out of the electric chair to deal with the types of things refs of any sports deal with at times!

 

[JYMF]

Todd,

We are finally being paid at a rate competitive to our surrounding states (we are still behind FL and GA for pay). Prior to the raise of 3 years ago, I believe it had been 15 years since the previous raise. Don't have time to look up inflation in that 15 year period but lets just say I'm pretty sure it was well over 10% (on very conservative side). I'm guessing nobody who did the same job for those 15 years went without a raise. Wrestling officials did.

Also built into our agreement with the HSL was a 7% increase in fees every 3 years. Call it a COL adjustment. Not uncommon in many contract negotiations. This was to be the first year of the raise under the new agreement. The HSL did not honor the agreement that their executive committee signed and agreed to. What would happen if we refused to officiate because they broke the agreement? I know, I know, some of you would stand up and cheer! But, we could shut down the sport in the state if that was our choice. We didn't. People complain about the fees now because we were so cheap for so long that they got spoiled. Now they are paying the going market rate.

I got the dollar figure straight from Todd M. about what he sends to the HSL each year. Maybe I misunderstood, but I did try to clarify several times and that is what I understand. 20-30K per year to the HSL.

BTW, I appreciate all you do for wrestling in SC and the great job you guys do running tournaments.

Bulldog,

Out of state refs would have to join our association and pay the dues. etc.. Who is going to contact them? Who is going to "hire" them? In other words, how do we know which ones to bring to our state tournament?

TBowe

The problem is not the pay raise. Issues are having to pay the same rate for all levels, which other sports do not do. Why do we have to pay a 1st year official the same amount to call a middle school dual that includes 6 forfeits, as we do the state duals semi or championship match?
Why do we have to pay the same per match tournament rate for a middle school or JV event, as we do varsity level invitationals, qualifying, or state events?
Finally...why do we have to pay a head official $200 per day to "direct" the officials?
This is insane. No other sport does this.. I called for many years and never needed another official to direct or oversee me.
This is indeed driving programs out of existence. Small programs can no longer host an event because of cost. Larger programs are charging more for entry fees, which lead to teams being restricted and limited on what they can do. Bigger programs will survive, while smaller programs will fade away. Think major college football. The smaller D1 programs can not keep up with the Race to Arms (55 million dollar Clemson facility), that the major programs are investing in. It becomes too costly for them to try and compete, so they drop the programs.
This will lead to lower participation number numbers, which does not reflect well on the sport, especially in a state where it struggles to begin with.

 

[swollen1]

Pretty bad when a ref that can go ref 5 weekend tournaments out of the year makes more than the coach who is coaching 52 weeks a year. What the hell am I thinking?

 

[TroyBowe]

T - is there not a national governing body like NFHS or AAAU (maybe not a good example) that certifies officials across the board? Meaning there's no joining this association or that one, certifying in separate states, etc. Any type of dues or registrations are paid to get nationally certified to officiate? I know that may drive up the cost but as a casual observer it seems paying a little more to get better quality may not be out of the realm of possibility.

Let me say this to make sure you understand I'm not dog piling, Thank You for your contribution to the sport. I've coached rec sports since '07, attended HS sports and college wrestling matches and I don't know that I'd climb out of the electric chair to deal with the types of things refs of any sports deal with at times!

Bulldog,

There is a national officials association but they do not certify officials by state or nationally. The NCAA does that for those of us who do college, but there is not anything like that in HS officiating. Each state certifies its own officials. Generally, they do not cross over from state to state. If I want to ref in NC or GA I need to pay to be certified there.

JYMF,

Like you, I have seen both sides. The reason we did not "push" the issue of the pay raise this year is to "negotiate" the pay for lower levels of wrestling. I agree, lower levels should not get the same pay as upper levels. I am not on the board but I think you may see a change in the future. I think having a head ref to monitor big tournaments is a good idea. Think it is good to have an overseer at large events and somebody who the coaches can "vent" to. Somebody who was not on the mat. As officials, we threw a proposal out there, and it stuck. Should we have said no, that's too much money?

I disagree with you about the DI football schools "arms race" eliminating the small guy. I believe that DI football is the reason we are seeing the dropping of minor sports (wrestling) at the DI level, not football programs. People blame title IX. I don't blame title IX. I blame 85 scholarships plus 20 plus walk-ons so the schools can stay "competitive" in football. Spend millions on facilities to compete in football but can't fund wrestling? That's just an excuse. Wrestling communities need to sell the sport and become self sufficient. Finish in the black every year and the financial argument universities use against us is eliminated.

I know you are making the same point about HS wrestling in SC. Again, you may see some change in the lower levels in the future.

TBowe

 

[TroyBowe]

Pretty bad when a ref that can go ref 5 weekend tournaments out of the year makes more than the coach who is coaching 52 weeks a year. What the hell am I thinking?

You said it, not me. I have more than doubled my coaching supplement this year (both when I coached wrestling & my current football supplement). But, I certainly work at it more than 5 weekends a year. Not nearly as much time as coaching, but not just a hobby.

 

[TroyBowe]

The problem is not the pay raise. Issues are having to pay the same rate for all levels, which other sports do not do. Why do we have to pay a 1st year official the same amount to call a middle school dual that includes 6 forfeits, as we do the state duals semi or championship match?
Why do we have to pay the same per match tournament rate for a middle school or JV event, as we do varsity level invitationals, qualifying, or state events?
Finally...why do we have to pay a head official $200 per day to "direct" the officials?
This is insane. No other sport does this.. I called for many years and never needed another official to direct or oversee me.
This is indeed driving programs out of existence. Small programs can no longer host an event because of cost. Larger programs are charging more for entry fees, which lead to teams being restricted and limited on what they can do. Bigger programs will survive, while smaller programs will fade away. Think major college football. The smaller D1 programs can not keep up with the Race to Arms (55 million dollar Clemson facility), that the major programs are investing in. It becomes too costly for them to try and compete, so they drop the programs.
This will lead to lower participation number numbers, which does not reflect well on the sport, especially in a state where it struggles to begin with.

JYMF,

By the way, you may have had to pay more, but you got to pull a "coaches choice" for which weight class to start the meet!

TBowe

 

[JYMF]

You said it, not me. I have more than doubled my coaching supplement this year (both when I coached wrestling & my current football supplement). But, I certainly work at it more than 5 weekends a year. Not nearly as much time as coaching, but not just a hobby.

1. Because someone (SCHSL) says it's ok to pay a certain rate ($200 per day for head ref), at what expense to the sport are we willing to endure? As the rates go higher, more coaches become officials in a sport that has fewer wrestlers and events due to the higher associated costs. A lot of officials, with no place to call.

2. Did a master's research paper on this in 2014. Major college football is killing a lot of programs....including football. See the two links below.
http://thebiglead.com/2016/04/28/some-fbs-schools-will-drop-football-that-may-be-a-good-thing/
https://www.insidehighered.com/view...ision-drop-football-should-be-model-others-es
Agree that TitleIX is not the problem to some extent... it is how schools are complying to it's requirements. Football is another religion in our country, especially in the south. If we are not careful, it will be the death of many athletic programs. Additionally, I hope that no one mentions that old tired ass argument that "FOOTBAW PAYS FOR EVERYTHANG".
Perhaps that was the case back in 1960 when there were 4 sports...FB, BB, baseball, and track, and only one of which actually sold tickets.

3. Unfortunately the Coaches Choice thing did not play in my favor as I was not the visiting team and didn't have the luxury of pulling from the "loaded deck."

 

[TroyBowe]

1. Because someone (SCHSL) says it's ok to pay a certain rate ($200 per day for head ref), at what expense to the sport are we willing to endure? As the rates go higher, more coaches become officials in a sport that has fewer wrestlers and events due to the higher associated costs. A lot of officials, with no place to call.

2. Did a master's research paper on this in 2014. Major college football is killing a lot of programs....including football. See the two links below.
http://thebiglead.com/2016/04/28/some-fbs-schools-will-drop-football-that-may-be-a-good-thing/
https://www.insidehighered.com/view...ision-drop-football-should-be-model-others-es
Agree that TitleIX is not the problem to some extent... it is how schools are complying to it's requirements. Football is another religion in our country, especially in the south. If we are not careful, it will be the death of many athletic programs. Additionally, I hope that no one mentions that old tired ass argument that "FOOTBAW PAYS FOR EVERYTHANG".
Perhaps that was the case back in 1960 when there were 4 sports...FB, BB, baseball, and track, and only one of which actually sold tickets.

3. Unfortunately the Coaches Choice thing did not play in my favor as I was not the visiting team and didn't have the luxury of pulling from the "loaded deck."

I don't disagree with anything you wrote,

TBowe

 

[D11WrestBest]

Troy,
Not debating if you deserved raise or not...you all were grossly misunder payed prior to the change, but your 1st raise put you above the referees in states with far better wrestling, both tradition and competition wise. The 2nd raise this past year put you way ahead of them. When you compare yourself to subpar states you should expect subpar results (which would include the criticism given as the fans expect more if you are given more). In my work world, I only get raises if I perform. Less experienced peo0le also don't make anywhere close to what I make...they must also perform to get to that level.

In these states I mention above, the newer refs do not get paid the same as the experienced refs. As they work there way through the ranks and better themselves and their skills, they move up the payment scale....the way it should be!!!!

My whole issue is this...I moved to this state 10 years ago. Regardless of how much you all get paid, there are officials today that make the same crappy calls on the mat that they did 10 years ago...and some have gotten worse. With a tiered plan as mentioned by JYMF and myself, this would encourage those who do this to better themselves. And if you are at the varsity level and don't improve yourself or should not be at that level, then you should be moved back!!! Without competition for a spot, there will never be incentive for improvement!!!!

Once again, this is not all of you that pull the striped shirt on through the season, but there are a handful that fall in to this group. The kids deserve for you to work hard and improve through the year...just like they do.

 

[n e w t o n]

I have friends who officiate in both SC and GA. Obviously I have friends who coach as well. I am able to hear certain points from both groups.

First of all, I supported the pay increase for officials to match that of the surrounding states. They had not had a pay raise in quite some time. I get it. The problem where the coaches are against the officials right now is the officials went too far. They insisted on sub-varsity officials getting paid the same as varsity. The matches are shorter. That in itself should keep them from getting paid the same amount. The other thing was the $200 "head official" fee. This was nothing other than a way for an official to get paid to evaluate. The coaches shouldn't be in charge of paying for the evaluation process. The combination of these 3 things happening in the same year caused problems. If there would have just been the varsity pay increase I believe everything would be fine. Now there is the thought process from coaches that the refs are only trying to squeeze out every penny possible.

This following example is the one that really got my blood boiling:
For years there used to be a per team fee for tournaments. One day vs two day tournaments had different rates and the host school paid the officials based on the number of teams participating. About 15 years ago or so was when the tournament landscape started to change. Tournaments started adopting pools and round robin formulas for kids to get more matches. This meant the officials were calling more matches but not getting paid more. They argued they should get paid per match officiated. Again, I totally agree. The problem comes in when the officials were trying to get paid for matches "not officiated." If a kid was a scratch or a no show or missed weight then he wouldn't be in the bracket. The officials were wanting to get paid for those matches as well. One kid out of the bracket means two less matches. One in championship and one in consolation. At the $5 per match rate that means they wanted us to pay $10 per kid every time this happened. Too me that is theft. To me that smells of "we are trying to milk as much money as possible." Up until this year officials were still arguing they should get paid per "possible" match that is on the bracket. My argument to one official was I don't care if I have the 64 man March Madness bracket hanging on the wall. That is irrelevant. What matters is the matches that take place. You argued you wanted to get paid per match and we all agree. The problem is when you get greedy and want to get paid for imaginary matches. I told this same official, "Instead of us paying you for matches you didn't officiate, why don't you just pass around an offering plate in the stands and see if parents will put in money for you. Wanting to get paid for matches not in existence really caused a stink. The SCHSL actually got involved this year to make sure we did not have to pay those.

This is the problem right not. It isn't the increase in pay or wanting to get paid per match instead of a flat fee. We would be OK with that. The problem is when you couple those aspects along with everything else and it seems like the officials are trying to take us to the cleaners like a used car salesman.

Like I said earlier, I have friends who are officials and I have friends who are coaches. I understand both parties point of view. I just think we need to do a better job of coming together for what is best for our sport in our state.

 

[BuckkillerSC]

D11 and Newton. Both of your posts are spot on. The only thing is, the coaches nor the wrestlers are getting their money's worth from the officials because of the lack of experience and just wanting a paycheck. There are only a few officials that actually earned a paycheck at the state tournament. The rest just took advantage of everyone. All of the evaluators basically took unearned money. They should give it back along with 95% of the other officials. the good ole boys club for officials needs to be broken down and a few new sheriffs put in place to make sure everything is done correctly. SC officials should not be earning more money than the northern or mid-western states that has a higher level of wrestling. SC officials shouldn't even earn more than the GA officials. They should actually go to these other states and train.

 

[Eagle Hater 3333]

As long as you have pieces of crap over the officials then the officials will be crap! Start with the director over the Anderson/Greenville area. Get rid of him first. He has his favorite schools and will cheat the others!

 

[BuckkillerSC]

As long as you have pieces of crap over the officials then the officials will be crap! Start with the director over the Anderson/Greenville area. Get rid of him first. He has his favorite schools and will cheat the others!

LOL. That's why I said there needs to be new sheriffs in town. New leaders or directors. I agree with you 100%.

 

[D11WrestBest]

In regards to Newton's point...that is why I will not number my tournaments until after all scratches are made....the first question I get once a tournament starts up is "How many bouts are we wrestling?". I know for a fact that at the tournaments I run, there are no scratches being paid for. Refs for JV and MS matches should definitely not get paid the same as a varsity match.

 

[TroyBowe]

Todd,

Totally agree with all your points. I am all for "levels" or merit pay as well. Let the coaches put in arbiter what level of official they want sent to them and thus decide their own pay scale. Make each ref a letter or number grade and the coaches will get what they ask for. Believe it or not, there has been some discussion along those lines.

Newton,

Can't believe we have guys who want to be paid for matches not wrestled. That never happens in the upstate and asking for that kind of pay would never cross my mind. That's just lazy and should not happen!!

TBowe

 

[BuckkillerSC]

Todd,

Totally agree with all your points. I am all for "levels" or merit pay as well. Let the coaches put in arbiter what level of official they want sent to them and thus decide their own pay scale. Make each ref a letter or number grade and the coaches will get what they ask for. Believe it or not, there has been some discussion along those lines.

Newton,

Can't believe we have guys who want to be paid for matches not wrestled. That never happens in the upstate and asking for that kind of pay would never cross my mind. That's just lazy and should not happen!!

TBowe

Troy,
Please don't think you're innocent. There is a huge difference in you from last season to this season. You act like you don't want to on the mat and that it's an inconvenience. I watched you officiate many matches this year and what gets me is how you can be a total jerk to the coaches just asking a simple question to you. Basically how dare they ask you a question. That's the perception of many fans, parents and coaches. Your lack of or delay in stalling calls is unsatisfactory especially if you are a college official. Hitting the aggressor for pushing and working while the other just backs and backs is a disgrace. Yes you are guilty of that. I do consider you one of the better officials but this season you were lacking in calls. If you want to make a difference then you and the better officials should push out the upstate directors and make a good change for this state. A better venue will not make a better wrestling tournament. We will just be more comfortable watching a bunch of officials screw up a lot of calls for these wrestlers. The officiating has to change with the venue for it to be successful and better for South Carolina.

 

[TroyBowe]

Troy,
Please don't think you're innocent. There is a huge difference in you from last season to this season. You act like you don't want to on the mat and that it's an inconvenience. I watched you officiate many matches this year and what gets me is how you can be a total jerk to the coaches just asking a simple question to you. Basically how dare they ask you a question. That's the perception of many fans, parents and coaches. Your lack of or delay in stalling calls is unsatisfactory especially if you are a college official. Hitting the aggressor for pushing and working while the other just backs and backs is a disgrace. Yes you are guilty of that. I do consider you one of the better officials but this season you were lacking in calls. If you want to make a difference then you and the better officials should push out the upstate directors and make a good change for this state. A better venue will not make a better wrestling tournament. We will just be more comfortable watching a bunch of officials screw up a lot of calls for these wrestlers. The officiating has to change with the venue for it to be successful and better for South Carolina.

Buck,

It has been my policy to not respond to you since I do not know who you are and you do not sign your name. But, you addressed me. I will speak to the stalling calls first. We have a system to follow and I think I was much more consistent this year in neutral stalling. First and foremost, we count shots. If you take them and the other guy doesn't, he is stalling. Pushing is not a shot, if neither guy shoots, let the clock run. If a wrestler backs to the edge (not off, but to the edge) twice, I call him for stalling. If he backs out twice, stalling. These are things I look for in order to stay consistent. Keep in mind, stalling is a judgement call. In college, we have the out of bounds rule which I like very much. Push out is stalling (pretty rare), back out is stalling (most common), and action call (no stalling). I wish we would go to this rule in HS.

On your point of being annoyed with some coaches, you are correct. There were times this year I was "short" with several coaches and that is something I tried to improve for myself late in the season. However, the rules are clear, you cannot ask questions from the corner and if you are not in the corner, you are not the coach. You also don't get to come to the edge of the mat and protest a call. I can think of being "short" with Adam at WO one or two times, but he likes to play the game of asking about stuff when he is really questioning judgement (might you be a WO supporter?). I consider him a friend and later talked to him about my being "short". I had to send Koz back to his corner several times because he likes to get to the edge of the mat (on the out of bounds line) in front of the table and yell (might you be a Eside supporter?). If you have a question, go to the table and we can talk. In other words, follow the rules. Sorry Adam and Koz for bringing you guys up as examples.

I think, at times, I was annoyed with the level of wrestling in this state. I have been blessed to officiate NCAA/NAIA matches and national events in Virginia Beach. When you come back and do a dual mid-week in SC, quite frankly, the wrestling stinks. Heck, in comparison, most of the wrestling in SC stinks. This is something I need to work on if I am going to continue to officiate SC HS wrestling. I need to be engaged and interested because that is what the kids deserve. I am currently thinking that through for next year. If I can't be engaged every night, I won't do SC HS wrestling. Not fair to the kids who wrestle. More importantly, not fair to my wife and 2 daughters at home who would very much like to have me around more!

As for screwing up calls at state. I can't speak to the others, but I honestly don't think I missed a call all weekend. I was engaged and receptive to coaches. In fact, the only time a coach questioned me was the 126 final. That was the only time I spoke to a coach all weekend.

TBowe

 

[BuckkillerSC]

Buck,

It has been my policy to not respond to you since I do not know who you are and you do not sign your name. But, you addressed me. I will speak to the stalling calls first. We have a system to follow and I think I was much more consistent this year in neutral stalling. First and foremost, we count shots. If you take them and the other guy doesn't, he is stalling. Pushing is not a shot, if neither guy shoots, let the clock run. If a wrestler backs to the edge (not off, but to the edge) twice, I call him for stalling. If he backs out twice, stalling. These are things I look for in order to stay consistent. Keep in mind, stalling is a judgement call. In college, we have the out of bounds rule which I like very much. Push out is stalling (pretty rare), back out is stalling (most common), and action call (no stalling). I wish we would go to this rule in HS.

On your point of being annoyed with some coaches, you are correct. There were times this year I was "short" with several coaches and that is something I tried to improve for myself late in the season. However, the rules are clear, you cannot ask questions from the corner and if you are not in the corner, you are not the coach. You also don't get to come to the edge of the mat and protest a call. I can think of being "short" with Adam at WO one or two times, but he likes to play the game of asking about stuff when he is really questioning judgement (might you be a WO supporter?). I consider him a friend and later talked to him about my being "short". I had to send Koz back to his corner several times because he likes to get to the edge of the mat (on the out of bounds line) in front of the table and yell (might you be a Eside supporter?). If you have a question, go to the table and we can talk. In other words, follow the rules. Sorry Adam and Koz for bringing you guys up as examples.

I think, at times, I was annoyed with the level of wrestling in this state. I have been blessed to officiate NCAA/NAIA matches and national events in Virginia Beach. When you come back and do a dual mid-week in SC, quite frankly, the wrestling stinks. Heck, in comparison, most of the wrestling in SC stinks. This is something I need to work on if I am going to continue to officiate SC HS wrestling. I need to be engaged and interested because that is what the kids deserve. I am currently thinking that through for next year. If I can't be engaged every night, I won't do SC HS wrestling. Not fair to the kids who wrestle. More importantly, not fair to my wife and 2 daughters at home who would very much like to have me around more!

As for screwing up calls at state. I can't speak to the others, but I honestly don't think I missed a call all weekend. I was engaged and receptive to coaches. In fact, the only time a coach questioned me was the 126 final. That was the only time I spoke to a coach all weekend.

TBowe

So how can a wrestler set up a shot while the other wrestler is constantly backing up? How is that possible? You continue to let wrestlers work the inside to set up a shot while the other backs and back and you do nothing to help change that. That is stalling and a failure to call it. Had you rather them take a lazy fake shot to get you to call something? It's your job to make both work and if one doesn't call them out. That's where you fail to call stalling.

And if you had rather be at home and are already annoyed with the way wrestling is in SC, then that's why you have changed this year. Your interest is gone for HS wrestling and it shows.

 

[TroyBowe]

So how can a wrestler set up a shot while the other wrestler is constantly backing up? How is that possible? You continue to let wrestlers work the inside to set up a shot while the other backs and back and you do nothing to help change that. That is stalling and a failure to call it. Had you rather them take a lazy fake shot to get you to call something? It's your job to make both work and if one doesn't call them out. That's where you fail to call stalling.

And if you had rather be at home and are already annoyed with the way wrestling is in SC, then that's why you have changed this year. Your interest is gone for HS wrestling and it shows.

If he backs to the edge twice, he IS called for stalling. If a kid walks around with a Russian and does nothing, he is stalling, not the other guy. Remember, judgement. Sorry that it shows. If I do continue, you have my word it will not show next year.

 

[Eagle Hater 3333]

So how can a wrestler set up a shot while the other wrestler is constantly backing up? How is that possible? You continue to let wrestlers work the inside to set up a shot while the other backs and back and you do nothing to help change that. That is stalling and a failure to call it. Had you rather them take a lazy fake shot to get you to call something? It's your job to make both work and if one doesn't call them out. That's where you fail to call stalling.

And if you had rather be at home and are already annoyed with the way wrestling is in SC, then that's why you have changed this year. Your interest is gone for HS wrestling and it shows.

Buck, you said Troy is one of the best we have. If he quits, one of the sucky refs moves into his spot.

 

[BuckkillerSC]

Buck, you said Troy is one of the best we have. If he quits, one of the sucky refs moves into his spot.

You are right but I said one of the better officials. And like like he said, if he is already annoyed with SC wrestling then how he does his job as an official is affected by his self motivation to do his job.

I'd much rather have Troy on the mat than many of the other ones but, how he said he feels, shows.

Troy,
And if a wrestler walks around with a russian and the other wrestler backs and backs, how do they set up a proper shot? Butt out backing? Stalling on the one backing? Right? AND, if you called stalling on the one that backs to the edge twice, I would be rich after shitting some gold bricks.