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New Legion Baseball Pitch Count

Skools

Four Year Letterman
Jul 10, 2009
411
2
18
American Legion today announced their new rules for pitch counts in 2017

http://www.legion.org/baseball/234452/legion-baseball-adopts-pitch-count-rule-2017

I would of liked to see the Max for Senior down from 120 pitches to 110 max.

The one that really bothers me is if your pitcher throws 1-45 pitches he has to take a day off. Where in high school i believe 1-30 you don't have to have any rest days. That will really hurt some teams in the regular season with back to back games and especially the playoffs. 1-20 pitches should be no days off!

How will any opposing teams monitor this!

More scoring will be seen next year!
 
I really believe the one day of rest after 1-45 pitches is probably just a typo. Pitch Smart recommends a day off once you hit 31-45. The problem is Legion has not released the actual rule, just a summary of it. The article also says Legion is working towards being Fully Compliant with Pitch Smart, which means no rest if you throw 1-30. Of course, Pitch Smart sets a max of 105 for 17-18's and 95 for 15-16's, and Legion has ignored that part.

My guess is they are still tweaking this rule. I also suspect that the article will probably be "updated" very soon. No inside info, just my guess.
 
According to what ALB is telling me, this rule will indeed require one calendar day of rest if a kid throws a SINGLE pitch.

As you know, I am a big advocate for pitch counts and mandatory rest, but this overkill. Pitch Smart requires 1 day of rest if you hit 31 pitches. I think 20-25 would be a better cutoff. But, 1 pitch = 1 day of rest makes no sense. This is going to have to be changed, ESPECIALLY if they insist on continuing with 9 inning games. They also confirmed to me that they are still working on the "final wording" of the rule, so hopefully they will clean this up.
 
This will also bring up the argument of having more than 18 players. If you have 3 PO's throw a game you are going to be going into a game with potentially 15 players. You can't tell me a 19 year old college kid can't throw back to back days either if you just throws 10-20 pitches.
 
I frequently see 3, 4, 5 guys pitch (for the same team) in a Legion game. Under this rule, they would all be lost for the next day. Now, if you don't have a game the next day, you're fine. But, if you do, your roster of available pitchers drops to 13-15 guys, many of whom probably will not be pitchers, to try to get through the next game. It's actually even worse than that when you consider that, due to the lack of commitment we see these days, you may not have more than 50-75% of those 13-15 guys present at that next game.

I predict that the phrase "taking one for the team" will become a lot more common next summer. Faced with a game the next day (or a doubleheader), some coaches will have little choice but to leave struggling pitchers in longer than they would prefer, just to take one for the team. Yeah, this rule will eliminate the 140-170 pitch games that some pitchers have had to endure at the hands of idiot coaches. But, it may result in more kids throwing more games in the 120 range. If Legion had followed Pitch Smart's 105/95 pitch cutoffs, this wouldn't be as big a deal. But, they didn't do that. They chose to push the limit as far as possible to get to 120+.

So, my primary advice to the coaches who care is to spread your games out as much as possible. Of course, that is only going to work until the rains come, and kids start skipping Legion to go to the beach with their buddies. Then you, and the kids, are screwed.
 
Hit it spot on Cohaze. Travel Ball, Work, and Vacations, you rarely have your full 18 there. For me as a coach next year if this rule upholds. I will never schedule back to back games. I think the other coaches in my league would agree with that. You might see teams going to less league games.

This will hurt playoffs I think more than anything else. Most teams use relief pitchers in back to back games in the playoffs if not 3 days in a row!

**Here is something of note though. If you go play another team outside your league technically your supposed to follow these rules but you don't have to. If Inman wants to go play Florence and one of inman's guys threw the night before he can throw against Florence. Technically those are exhibition games.

So you might see more teams do back to backs with teams outside of their region!
 
Skools, I got my hands on a copy of the actual rule. The ALB press release is very misleading. I'm gonna start a new thread later today.
 
Cohaze the new article that they released today is saying it is a "required" rest day for 1-45. Maybe this is a misprint too?
 
This whole situation keeps getting more bizarre. Earlier this week I got a copy of what was supposed to be the new rule. It contained the 120 pitch limitation as stated in the original article. However, on page 2 it CLEARLY states that the rest rules are "recommended" and "suggested." (Their words, not mine). I sent ALB a series of messages via Twitter pointing this out. (You can see our conversation on their Twitter feed). They continue to claim that the rest rules are mandatory. I thought they would tell me that the rule that I received was not current, but they didn't do that. I asked them to post the rule, if it exists, but they have thus far refused. They claim that they are still working on the wording, and that the final rule will appear in next year's rule book.

The second Press Release you are talking about came out yesterday. http://tinyurl.com/jn9zwnv My guess is this was in response to all of the crap they were catching in the comments section of their initial Press Release. http://tinyurl.com/zgmca49 The Second Press Release again suggests that the rest rules, including the 1 Pitch = 1 Day rule, are mandatory. Among other things, it tries to rationalize their reasons for the 1 Pitch = 1 Day of Rest rule. Of course, they offer no real explanation for setting the max at 120, vs. the 105 recommended by Pitch Smart. Their only half-hearted explanation is it would be too hard on the coaches to keep up with different limits for different age groups. That doesn't explain why 120 is a better number than 105. Pitch Smart allows 120 pitches for 19 year olds, but recommends 105 for 17-18's and 95 for 15-16's. In the Second Press Release, Legion states that "the majority of our rosters are under 18 players." So, why choose the limit recommended for 19's?

The Second Press Release suggests that the 1 Pitch Rule was based on some sort of "pilot program," and:
" Pitchers who throw "one pitch" don’t truly throw just one pitch with the stress of the entire process of preparing to pitch. We also found that not enforcing rest after every appearance led to a lot of abuse and loopholes that harmed pitchers’ long-term health." There is certainly some truth to those statements. But, IMHO, this portion of the rule is overkill. No group, not USA Baseball, not ASMI, or Dr. Andrews has taken a position quite like this. Yes, it will protect pitchers, but it is going to devastate some programs.

Of course, they express no concern for the fact that Legion pitchers, like HS kids, are frequently brought in to pitch with zero preparation. Nor do they express any real concern for 15-18 year old kids throwing far more pitches than the medical professionals recommend. They don't seem to understand that those last 15 pitches in a 120 pitch outing are FAR more stressful than the pitches thrown earlier in an outing.

So, as of right know, looks like we're stuck with the 1 Pitch = 1 Strike Rule. I would suggest everyone add their comments to the articles they posted. I really think they are fumbling their way through this. I suspect the "rule" I received earlier this week is indeed the most recent draft. I also suspect they don't really know/understand what it says. My guess is they are going to continue to play with this until they have to submit the rule for publication in the 2017 Rule Book.

I don't know if this is new or not, but the "rule" I got earlier this week also indicated that they will be instituting a Pitch Clock. Pitchers will have 12 seconds to throw a pitch, once the batter enters the box.

The document I received earlier this week also suggests that the Penalty for violating the max pitch count of 120 is ejection of the PLAYER AND MANAGER, IF, I repeat IF, a protest is filed with the Head Umpire before the final out. So, if you don't get caught during the game, you get off scot free. Most HS rules provide for Forfeiture of the game. As of right now, the Legion Rule does not.

Unlike every HS rule I have seen thus far, the Legion rule attempts to put the Umpire squarely in the middle. The Second Press Release sates that the umpire will the the "arbitrator" of all disputes. Yeah, that's gonna work.

The 120 limit is apparently a DAILY limit, which suggests you could possibly have a kid throwing in both games of a double-header, so long as he does not exceed a total of 120.
 
The umpires I know will care less about pitch count. You know what they will do? Lets flip a coin! The only way are going to have this monitored is if the Field umpire keeps a clicker too.

New's Flash! If your coaches all agree in your league that they don't have to abide by these rules then you don't have to. Only when you reach playoffs. Look 2 years ago League 6 played with reentry rule!

The other thing that really bothered me is when the new chairman said most teams don't have enough players anyway to field a team of 18. I don't know where your gathering this information but almost every team I know "STARTS" with 18 players and may finish with 12-16. I'm sorry I have to cut 10-12 kids a year. We have no issue in our state in my opinion getting rosters of 18
 
I guess two coaches with a "gentlemen's agreement" might be able to ignore the rule. But, I wouldn't count on getting away with it for long. For one thing, the more sophisticated parents will know what the rule is, and may not tolerate their kids being overused. Plus, the feeling I am getting is that National is finally serious about enforcing a rule for public relations purposes, even if it is a screwed up one in some respects. I know some leagues have played fast and loose with some of the rules, particularly the roster rule. But, this is one rule that they would be pretty stupid to ignore.

The numbers of players coming out for Legion varies significantly, depending on where you live. There have years when some of the teams in League 6 have had to cut a few players. But, there have been other years when they could barely scrape together enough kids to play.
 
We have coaches in our league that play 7 innings instead of 9 to save innings and nobody ever does anything about it!
 
We have coaches in our league that play 7 innings instead of 9 to save innings and nobody ever does anything about it!

Good. I wish they would all do that to make a stand against this ridiculous 9 inning rule they force on these kids. The overwhelming majority of kids playing legion ball play 7 in their high school games. It is stupid to make them play 9. Especially with only 18 kids on the team.
 
American Legion today announced their new rules for pitch counts in 2017

http://www.legion.org/baseball/234452/legion-baseball-adopts-pitch-count-rule-2017

I would of liked to see the Max for Senior down from 120 pitches to 110 max.

The one that really bothers me is if your pitcher throws 1-45 pitches he has to take a day off. Where in high school i believe 1-30 you don't have to have any rest days. That will really hurt some teams in the regular season with back to back games and especially the playoffs. 1-20 pitches should be no days off!

How will any opposing teams monitor this!

More scoring will be seen next year!

What I find disturbing is how they use Andrew's and Fleisig's quotes in the text of their submission to support their decision to do this, yet turn right around and alter the very guidelines the leading experts in the field recommend. At his point after what I have seen recently in this state, nothing surprises me anymore. Happy they have tried to at least make some restrictions but it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to change ANY part of the PitchSmart rules.
 
Legion baseball needs to understand that it's not 1960, 1980, or even 2000. Back then you would get the best players, and all of your college aged kids back. Like we all know its not like that anymore. When you had those kids you could get through 9 inning games.

I had a long talk with a coach a couple years ago and he said look at the states that draw the top 7 teams. What do they all have in common they are all above the Mason Dixon line and those states don't have as much travel as the teams below the mason dixon line.

Now i'm sure there are tons of travel teams in these states below but the coach said in these states Legion is so tradition rich that the legion will do what ever it can to keep these states happy. IE keep 9 inning games.


Minnesota 338
Nebraska 295
Pennsylvanian 287
Wisconsin 226
Illinois 157
Connecticut 152
Massachusetts 145

What I think needs to happen to keep Legion going and more popular:

Senior Legion: Need to market this team to College Freshman to have the opportunity to come back and play. Have to get the Graduating Seniors. I know its tough with their vacations. I really harp on the kid has the opportunity to come back and play one more season but has to play this summer to be eligible.

Junior Legion: Most successful Junior legion teams I have seen are teams that are run by the high school coaches. I have seen some that have their high school kids and then the kids go play travel on the weekend with another organization or the high school coach creates a legion/travel team.

The High school Coaches need to help keep it alive.

THE THING THAT BOTHERS ME THE MOST IS EVERYONE COMPLAINS THAT LEGION IS DYING BY THE WAIST SIDE. WHAT ARE THE STATES AND LEAGUE DIRECTORS DOING ABOUT IT? THEY ARE NOT BUSTING THEIR *** TO GET NEW TEAMS FORMED. THE STATE DIRECTOR NEEDS TO MAP OUT A FUTURE PLAN AND TELL THE LEAGUE DIRECTORS BY THIS SEASON YOU NEED TO HAVE THIS MANY TEAMS OR WE ARE GOING TO FIND SOMEONE ELSE. I WISH THEY HAD 2 PAID STATE DIRECTORS. THESE GUYS WERE PAID THERE WOULD BE MORE TEAMS!
 
Legion baseball needs to understand that it's not 1960, 1980, or even 2000. Back then you would get the best players, and all of your college aged kids back. Like we all know its not like that anymore. When you had those kids you could get through 9 inning games.

I had a long talk with a coach a couple years ago and he said look at the states that draw the top 7 teams. What do they all have in common they are all above the Mason Dixon line and those states don't have as much travel as the teams below the mason dixon line.

Now i'm sure there are tons of travel teams in these states below but the coach said in these states Legion is so tradition rich that the legion will do what ever it can to keep these states happy. IE keep 9 inning games.


Minnesota 338
Nebraska 295
Pennsylvanian 287
Wisconsin 226
Illinois 157
Connecticut 152
Massachusetts 145

What I think needs to happen to keep Legion going and more popular:

Senior Legion: Need to market this team to College Freshman to have the opportunity to come back and play. Have to get the Graduating Seniors. I know its tough with their vacations. I really harp on the kid has the opportunity to come back and play one more season but has to play this summer to be eligible.

Junior Legion: Most successful Junior legion teams I have seen are teams that are run by the high school coaches. I have seen some that have their high school kids and then the kids go play travel on the weekend with another organization or the high school coach creates a legion/travel team.

The High school Coaches need to help keep it alive.

THE THING THAT BOTHERS ME THE MOST IS EVERYONE COMPLAINS THAT LEGION IS DYING BY THE WAIST SIDE. WHAT ARE THE STATES AND LEAGUE DIRECTORS DOING ABOUT IT? THEY ARE NOT BUSTING THEIR *** TO GET NEW TEAMS FORMED. THE STATE DIRECTOR NEEDS TO MAP OUT A FUTURE PLAN AND TELL THE LEAGUE DIRECTORS BY THIS SEASON YOU NEED TO HAVE THIS MANY TEAMS OR WE ARE GOING TO FIND SOMEONE ELSE. I WISH THEY HAD 2 PAID STATE DIRECTORS. THESE GUYS WERE PAID THERE WOULD BE MORE TEAMS!

We could have 10 directors. Paid or not paid. If they all have the same idiotic approach that the current director here has, it wouldn't matter. The baffling decisions the current director has made would be laughable if they weren't so disturbing.
 
Dawgpoundit If the league directors were paid I would hope it would get better. If you don't create teams bye bye. That would be your job from September-March. Create new teams.

With the current director he is a nice guy in person. But it seems like he and the committee just wants to make ruling with the least amount of drama!

Columbia is the biggest city in the state and they only have 4 teams when they used to have 8

Charleston Area only has one team in Beaufort. Used to have 6 teams in that area

Myrtle Beach area has 2 teams used to have 5.

Greenville has 1 team.

In our biggest cities we have no teams. Myrtle Beach and Charleston are huge for travel baseball I understand but we need to get them back. 1 team at a time. Make progress don't regress. If you legion can't fund it start charging the kids 200 bucks to play!
 
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