Thoughts on the Weekend
- Thread starter Eagle Hater 3333
- Start date
I didn't see the match, and I guess I need to try and research the actual rule, but I have been advised before that nearfalls didn't actually have to be awarded for the 2Pt reversal to be awarded, that once the former offensive wrestler was fighting nearfall from the Peterson position that a reversal should be awarded.
Par Terre,
I have left this alone until you decided to bring in "non-wrestling" guys as officials in wrestling. In this case, that could not be further from the truth.
First, I know who you are and had a great deal of respect for your wrestling ability when you were a wrestler. Quite frankly, you are one of the best wrestlers I have seen in my 12 or 13 years in this state. With that said, no way you can say you were looking at this match in an unbiased fashion. The bonds formed in a wrestling room run deep and last a lifetime. I know this.
Trust me, I am a wrestling guy. My father was a coach when I was born (he was a state runner-up in Iowa as a wrestler and a state championship coach), I grew up in the sport. Started wrestling in 3rd grade, started officiating while I was in college, started the wrestling team at Key West High School and coached several state champions when I was the coach at Greenville HS (where Dr. Howard was my AD). I have now been back in officiating for 6 years. I ref college and HS, I travel all over the SE to officiate and I have done multiple NHSCA national events in Virginia Beach. I am a wrestling guy. I take officiating very seriously. At 51 years old, I still work out pretty hard to make sure I can move on the mat the way the athletes deserve for me to move.
Now, to the match and the call. Great match, the best scrambles of the tournament and what I thought were lots of good "holds" on my part. Called a stalemate with 17 seconds left as that would still allow the Byrnes wrestler enough time to execute a move. The rule book states "the top wrestler must be concerned about being pinned in order for a reversal to be scored in a peterson situation". It says this once in the rule book and once in the case book. My guess is nobody has watched that video since Saturday night more than I have. At least 20 times. There is no way I should have ever given the 2 in the first place (my worst call of the weekend, if not ever, by far). At no point was the RH wrestler concerned about being pinned or even close to near fall criteria. Generally, when criteria is met, we give the 2 and start counting back points. Should have never given 2, I blew that. But, I immediately asked my assistant because I knew it was questionable. We discussed, and got the call correct.
As to an escape, the RH wrestler was sitting up, the Byrnes wrestler is on his own left hip and the RH wrestler had his left leg free with his right arm around the Byrnes wrestler. Whether somebody was holding it there makes no difference. You think the RH kid was trying to let go at that point or was he squeezing him? Simply put, an escape cannot be given in that situation. Its a reversal or nothing. I understand your logic of letting the kids decide in overtime. They did decide. One athlete earned a clear escape and scored a point, the other didn't.
There was one call the entire weekend that I had second thoughts about and I blew my whistle hundreds of times last weekend. Only call that I even looked at on video and the only time I went to the table with a coach the entire weekend. That match was called by a wrestling guy who cares very deeply about the right guy winning the match. At first, I blew the call. I am glad I had an assistant that had my back and glad we got the call correct.
TBowe
So why do you guys feel the need to let wrestlers back up and back up away from the aggressor and not call stalling? WHY? I've watched you do that many times. Why not make the wrestler's wrestle instead of one person doing all the work. All of you are to blame for that. And you know it. You let wrestlers wear themselves out trying to set up their moves on track stars.
Would love to see the video of this match and call in question. I have no dog in the fight , I don't agree with the reference of how/where the wrestlers arm was positioned not being important. In a Peterson scenario the wrestler in the Peterson is always going to have one leg free, so not sure why that would impact the call. The initiating wrestler is also going to be pulling the wrestlers arm over his waist area, that is how the move is performed.
To use that as a justification for not awarding a reversal in that scenario, I'm not following. If the kid never had to initiate any action to avoid being put in a nearfall position, and to me avoiding nearfall could be a bridge, trying to slide /rock to a non nearfall position, then I understand the call. I just don't understand your reasoning with the arm and leg. Maybe I'm just not reading/interpreting your breakdown correctly, which is why I would love to see the video.
To use that as a justification for not awarding a reversal in that scenario, I'm not following. If the kid never had to initiate any action to avoid being put in a nearfall position, and to me avoiding nearfall could be a bridge, trying to slide /rock to a non nearfall position, then I understand the call. I just don't understand your reasoning with the arm and leg. Maybe I'm just not reading/interpreting your breakdown correctly, which is why I would love to see the video.
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http://www.nfhsnetwork.com/events/schsl/9bcad37bfe
About the 57 minute mark is where the last stalemate is called and the last sequence of wrestling begins.
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ParTerre is right about one thing. The Peterson is usually awarded a reversal on the roll through and that's wrong. If it wasn't officiated wrong by most all year then it wouldn't be boo'd when it was officiated correctly! That goes back to BuckKiller's comment. You should call out the guys that make the wrong call in those situations! It made your correct no reversal call appear wrong.
I was sitting on the grey match. Waiting to watch Mansfield catch his title and when they called wilkins to step on the podium this byrnes parent started booing Wilkins.
Wilkins was booed on the podium (not by just one guy, either). I thought that was extremely tacky. I understand booing a call the ref made in the moment (correct or not). Its human. But to boo a kid when he is on the podium accepting his medal isn't right.
First, and most importantly, for those booing on the awards stand that is unquestionably unacceptable. No room for that in the sport, especially when we are dealing with children.
Troy,
I am well aware of your resume and know this is not simply a weekend activity for you. I got carried away lumping you into the "drive-by" set, those were two separate thoughts that I should not have put together. Do not get me wrong, I think that match was officiated extraordinarily well. The nearly minute scramble to start the 3rd was awarded exactly as it should be (which is to say not at all) as was the warranted stall call in the first period. Hats off handling the most head-to-toe scramble action of any finals match I watched. As for the call in question, I interpret the idea of lose of control differently. Top (RH) obviously started that exchange in control in the referee's position and from my view (both live, on video Saturday, and just now at the above link) when the action was stopped (when time ran out) I didn't feel he was still in control of the position, or to say, was controlling his opponent. To clarify, the wrist or arm that he, or anyone, has in a Peterson position is more or less seen as him holding himself into the position?
Honestly, it's good to hear the thought process of officials actually and I appreciate the discourse. It was a learn-able moment with regards to how that position is often called in contrast to what the rulebook states.
Troy,
I am well aware of your resume and know this is not simply a weekend activity for you. I got carried away lumping you into the "drive-by" set, those were two separate thoughts that I should not have put together. Do not get me wrong, I think that match was officiated extraordinarily well. The nearly minute scramble to start the 3rd was awarded exactly as it should be (which is to say not at all) as was the warranted stall call in the first period. Hats off handling the most head-to-toe scramble action of any finals match I watched. As for the call in question, I interpret the idea of lose of control differently. Top (RH) obviously started that exchange in control in the referee's position and from my view (both live, on video Saturday, and just now at the above link) when the action was stopped (when time ran out) I didn't feel he was still in control of the position, or to say, was controlling his opponent. To clarify, the wrist or arm that he, or anyone, has in a Peterson position is more or less seen as him holding himself into the position?
Honestly, it's good to hear the thought process of officials actually and I appreciate the discourse. It was a learn-able moment with regards to how that position is often called in contrast to what the rulebook states.
ParTerre,
Thank you for the response. And, yes, the arm around what was actually the upper torso in this case, is what is holding him in place. I am sure he was hanging on for dear life at that moment. The beauty of OUR sport is that there is almost always two ways to view tight situations and sometimes we agree and sometimes we disagree. The unfortunate part of our sport is that somebody has to win and somebody has to lose. That was the best low scoring, scramble filled match I have ever officiated on the high school level in this state.
With that said, neither of those two wrestlers is a loser!! We both know the life lessons learned in the wrestling room and in front of the crowds, as well as the lifelong friendships we make, far outweigh any of the wins and losses. I'm pretty confident Mr. Christopher will go on to do great things. I know the values his coach instills in his young men and the type of quality people his program produces. You being a prime example (hope I didn't blow your cover).
On a side note, we could always use more good, young, quality officials. Why don't you come join the dark side?
TBowe
Is that last sentence a joke? There are good young previous state champs that are officials. Clay Walker, Dillon Gary and Patrick James are officials aren't they? They would be a million percent better than 90% of those guys there This past weekend. But I hear it's hard for these really good young officials to get past the good ole boy system. As a matter of fact, a couple of coaches and I were discussing this very subject 1 hr ago.
And don't think a mistake on the mat will leave these kids mind. Especially if it's their last year in high school. It's the mistakes the officials makes that they remember. It doesn't matter if it's the lack of stalling calls or just the wrong call. They don't forget. Don't fool yourself to make yourself feel better.
Here is some more information if anyone wants to let everyone know how disgusted we feel from the top to the bottom. These guys are the head officials for their districts.
DISTRICT I
Dino White, Director
704 Ralsgate Drive
Spartanburg 29301
denowh@charter.net
Office: 864-809-8101
Home: 864-949-1407
Mike Wilson
district1refs@gmail.com
Home: 864-221-5164
DISTRICT II
Pat McCarthy, Director
716 Seton Road
Columbia 29212
pmccarthy@jones-frank.com
Office: 803-731-4140
Home: 803-772-8005
DISTRICT III
Paul Hernandez, Director
7210 Wistling Godwait Way
Hanahan 29410
pah114@comcast.net
Office: 843-822-1071
Home: 843-572-2136
DISTRICT IV
Neal Collins, Director
162 Fruit Mountian Road
Easley 29640
collins.neal@gmail.com
Cell: 864-350-4175
DISTRICT I
Dino White, Director
704 Ralsgate Drive
Spartanburg 29301
denowh@charter.net
Office: 864-809-8101
Home: 864-949-1407
Mike Wilson
district1refs@gmail.com
Home: 864-221-5164
DISTRICT II
Pat McCarthy, Director
716 Seton Road
Columbia 29212
pmccarthy@jones-frank.com
Office: 803-731-4140
Home: 803-772-8005
DISTRICT III
Paul Hernandez, Director
7210 Wistling Godwait Way
Hanahan 29410
pah114@comcast.net
Office: 843-822-1071
Home: 843-572-2136
DISTRICT IV
Neal Collins, Director
162 Fruit Mountian Road
Easley 29640
collins.neal@gmail.com
Cell: 864-350-4175
I'm also hearing that the basketball championship is held at the Peace Center or Bilo Center. Is that true?
upper state championships are held at the Bilo Center, State is held at the (centrally located) Colonial Life Arena in Columbia
The upper state SEMIFINALS for boys and girls was held at the Bon Secours Wellness Center (BiLo Center) - not even the finals - the SEMIFINALS!!!!!
Thank you Swu. So in other words, they let basketball take the first class ticket and put us in the belly of the plane. That's BS folks. We really need to band together and kick someone's ass for this. Our wrestlers deserve better than this. They definitely work harder than any other sport. We get put in the Anderson Civic Center with terrible ref's (not all but most). Something is wrong here.
I've been reading this for a couple days now and have some thoughts on some of it...
Venue... I appreciate what Todd M and others do in trying to produce a great event. However; this location and facility isn't working, and our kids deserve better. Seating/viewing is not sufficient, warm-up area is non existent, no showers, and it looks like exactly what it is... a large warehouse that is best used for flea markets, trade shows, etc... I feel for the folks on the coast who have that long drive.
Tournament Format.... Due to football driving the ship in SC, and controlling the SCHSL, we now have an absolutely unnecessary 5A division. This necessitates an earlier start time, more mats, and weird tournament schedule. I'm all for a two day tournament, but it should be for the right reasons. Appeasing schools and their FB programs is not what I would call "good for the group." Coaches start whining because they are in a division with a couple of perennial powerhouse programs, so they want to create more divisions, for the sole purpose of having a "fair and competitive FOOTBAW team" who has a shot at winning a state championship. So the SCHSL agrees and approves. In a city near me, there is a county councilman who has actually proposed that "Football City USA" be painted on a large water tower. His position is that due to the many highly competitive teams and past and present NFL players, the city should be recognized as such. Not sure if this will pass, but it doesn't matter. The city is often referred to as FBCUSA in many publications and news outlets. What this says to me is "Hey, our FB guys really matter to us." As these opinions and biases continue to grow, they are at the expense of other programs and sports.
Not hatin here...just stating facts. There are many other sports teams that have dominated their sport for many years and get almost no respect whatsoever. There are two now past legends of high school track and field who produced multiple state championships that you almost never hear about. A local wrestling team has won more state titles than the three high school teams combined, but yet aint nobody paintin water towers for them.
Cost... I dropped over $2,000 on the weekend. After having to go down a night earlier (5A 10:00 AM weigh in), the lodging, food, etc... well exceeded $2,000.
Spending that much money on an 8 man tournament that could be ran in 7 hours is insane. I would prefer it go back to separate locations by division in a high school gym.
Officials... There are some darn good officials in our state and who were at that tournament. I will say however; that the ones who continue to excel and are consistently on top of it, are the same guys who were around 20 years ago as some of the top refs. There were some crazy calls made no doubt...
1st round... my kid is being crushed and totally dominated by the eventual state champ... we get dinged for stalling 3 times while on bottom and practically having our arm ripped off. Cant do much under that kind of control. Finals... kid gets on top of us and goes to sleep with a tighwaist, actually looking at the official and waiting to be told to change off. Never happened. Most of the third period consisted of a deep tightwaist, parrallel position, and NO action. Obviously the situation at 126 was crazy. Should have at least been a loss of control.
Evaluators... I think part of the problem with some of the guys was that they were being critically watched and tended to be a little more aggressive in making calls, or hesitant to make a call. Why would you have a "panel of judges" watching very move you make and then being a little nervous about the whole thing. Obviously the intent is to put the best guys in the finals on the best matches, etc.. but I think it tends to backfire. There were calls being made that would have never been considered back during the season, or even from one mat to the next. I would compare it to taking the bar exam and having the people who will actually grade your test sitting across the table from you. Ya may not be on your best game.
SCHSL... Not that they have ever really given much to our sport ( " I don't know anything about wrestling and honestly don't care to"). Some of the coaches will know to what I am referring here. But, they dropped the ball on this event. I assume the employees of the HSL are on salary. From what I know of a salaried employee, you generally do whatever comes along with the job. Regardless of situation or circumstance this past weekend, SOMEONE from the SCHSL should have been present for the majority of the event. They certainly don't mind collecting any proceeds off of the qualifier and play-off series that got the kids there.
Just my thoughts... we need improvement
Venue... I appreciate what Todd M and others do in trying to produce a great event. However; this location and facility isn't working, and our kids deserve better. Seating/viewing is not sufficient, warm-up area is non existent, no showers, and it looks like exactly what it is... a large warehouse that is best used for flea markets, trade shows, etc... I feel for the folks on the coast who have that long drive.
Tournament Format.... Due to football driving the ship in SC, and controlling the SCHSL, we now have an absolutely unnecessary 5A division. This necessitates an earlier start time, more mats, and weird tournament schedule. I'm all for a two day tournament, but it should be for the right reasons. Appeasing schools and their FB programs is not what I would call "good for the group." Coaches start whining because they are in a division with a couple of perennial powerhouse programs, so they want to create more divisions, for the sole purpose of having a "fair and competitive FOOTBAW team" who has a shot at winning a state championship. So the SCHSL agrees and approves. In a city near me, there is a county councilman who has actually proposed that "Football City USA" be painted on a large water tower. His position is that due to the many highly competitive teams and past and present NFL players, the city should be recognized as such. Not sure if this will pass, but it doesn't matter. The city is often referred to as FBCUSA in many publications and news outlets. What this says to me is "Hey, our FB guys really matter to us." As these opinions and biases continue to grow, they are at the expense of other programs and sports.
Not hatin here...just stating facts. There are many other sports teams that have dominated their sport for many years and get almost no respect whatsoever. There are two now past legends of high school track and field who produced multiple state championships that you almost never hear about. A local wrestling team has won more state titles than the three high school teams combined, but yet aint nobody paintin water towers for them.
Cost... I dropped over $2,000 on the weekend. After having to go down a night earlier (5A 10:00 AM weigh in), the lodging, food, etc... well exceeded $2,000.
Spending that much money on an 8 man tournament that could be ran in 7 hours is insane. I would prefer it go back to separate locations by division in a high school gym.
Officials... There are some darn good officials in our state and who were at that tournament. I will say however; that the ones who continue to excel and are consistently on top of it, are the same guys who were around 20 years ago as some of the top refs. There were some crazy calls made no doubt...
1st round... my kid is being crushed and totally dominated by the eventual state champ... we get dinged for stalling 3 times while on bottom and practically having our arm ripped off. Cant do much under that kind of control. Finals... kid gets on top of us and goes to sleep with a tighwaist, actually looking at the official and waiting to be told to change off. Never happened. Most of the third period consisted of a deep tightwaist, parrallel position, and NO action. Obviously the situation at 126 was crazy. Should have at least been a loss of control.
Evaluators... I think part of the problem with some of the guys was that they were being critically watched and tended to be a little more aggressive in making calls, or hesitant to make a call. Why would you have a "panel of judges" watching very move you make and then being a little nervous about the whole thing. Obviously the intent is to put the best guys in the finals on the best matches, etc.. but I think it tends to backfire. There were calls being made that would have never been considered back during the season, or even from one mat to the next. I would compare it to taking the bar exam and having the people who will actually grade your test sitting across the table from you. Ya may not be on your best game.
SCHSL... Not that they have ever really given much to our sport ( " I don't know anything about wrestling and honestly don't care to"). Some of the coaches will know to what I am referring here. But, they dropped the ball on this event. I assume the employees of the HSL are on salary. From what I know of a salaried employee, you generally do whatever comes along with the job. Regardless of situation or circumstance this past weekend, SOMEONE from the SCHSL should have been present for the majority of the event. They certainly don't mind collecting any proceeds off of the qualifier and play-off series that got the kids there.
Just my thoughts... we need improvement
I agree with almost everything you say here. But, you give way to much credit to the refs. I understand why but I thought they sucked from one end to the other and for every athlete out there. I believe they know it too.
You coaches can find a way to make this better. The reason I say you coaches is if all of you stick together you can improve all of the issues with this past weekend. Us parents, supporters and fans will support each and every one if you if you can tell us how and what we can do.
Coaches that complain about stall calls but teach their "terrible wrestlers" to stall should quit complaining!
If the refs would learn how to call stalling and penalize them, then all wrestlers would have to actually wrestle. Like I said in many of my posts, one wrestles and the other runs track. The ref does nothing but either call stalling the last 30 seconds of the match or first 30 sec of the match and remains the same for the next 5.5 minutes. I think that's the call that should be called the most to make wrestlers wrestle. It still makes me mad as hell!!!
In the same vein as going back to separate locations...why do we run all classifications at the same time? Has it been considered to run the State Tournament similar to how we do North/South and pair 5A with 2A-1A for Friday, 4A and 3A together for Saturday? If we could get 8 mats, we could make the State Tournament a 1 day weigh-in. This could potentially help get more casual fans in the door because they only have to show up for 1 day to watch their interest. The die-hards will still be there for both days, and it would conceivably make a bad situation at the ACC slightly better. It doesn't fix the shower issues, or concessions, or complaints about officials, but it does reduce crowding and may help get more exposure for individuals or their schools.
I think the STATE CHAMPIONSHIP should be a big event. Multiple colored mats across a large venue says you are at something important. Please don't separate divisions. College coaches might miss seeing a great 4A wrestler because he is at the 5A event. Wrestlers enjoy watching big matches in divisions they don't wrestle in. A Parade of Champions is a sad parade with half the fans.(It was a sad parade this year anyways, but in the past it was pretty exciting). Agree on a new venue, disagree on separating divisions.
Agree with ya Metts. However; a $2,000 bill for an 8 man bracket so that we can ultimately comply with the SCHSL/Football, and keep everyone together for the "cool/excitement" factor is not justified if you and your program are footing the bill.
One of the earlier post mentioned splitting the divisions. 5A/2a-1a on Friday, 3a/4a on Saturday. One day for the teams that don't want to foot the bill for the extra day and still in the same location for us diehards that want to take it all in. Rotate every year the days that each division wrestles.
Combine individuals into 1 tournament, and keep the duals broken into classes. Qualify the same way as we do now, convert the four current 8-man bracket state tournaments into a single 32 man tournament. 1 Individual State Champ per weight, 2 days, 6 mats, 1 mat for finals, 1 podium, 1 awards ceremony, place to 6th (or even 8th).
Won't help with the opinions of the officials, or concessions, or showers at the ACC, only a change in venue can . But will allow for more floor space that can be used for a warm-up area. Also allows more time for a Parade of Champions and finals with a lot of bells and whistles to it.
Won't help with the opinions of the officials, or concessions, or showers at the ACC, only a change in venue can . But will allow for more floor space that can be used for a warm-up area. Also allows more time for a Parade of Champions and finals with a lot of bells and whistles to it.
2sem..... Great minds think alike.
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
A. Einstein
I like this idea best! I was under the assumption that we were trying to better the system we had but keep the same format. I'm all for scrapping the old way and crowning one champ per weight class. Sure there would be some pouting from the participation parents!!!
No disrespect meant but what in the world did you spend $2 grand on? Do they jack up the hotels for that weekend? Maybe I'm being naive, I'm familiar with the area and can't imagine what I'd spend that much on for 2 days in Anderson. Hotel, feeding a family of ???
I can easily see a team spending that much. $100 per night per hotel room. If you have 2-4 wrestlers, you need at least two rooms, that's $400. A rental car to bring the wrestlers is another $2-400, depending on the size of the car. Feeding wrestlers for 3 days, easily another couple hundred dollars.
I went with my wife and son, and another former wrestler stayed with my son in his room. We spent $550 just on hotel rooms, for 2 days.
My apologies, yes on a whole team I could see that. I wasn't aware the person above is a coach or was footing the bill for a team.
7 Rooms/2 nights .... $1500
15 Wrestlers/Coaches... Lunch and Dinner for two days.... $ A LOT
I try and make the state tournament a nice weekend for all involved, as I have done for a long time. Not gonna stay in a dump and won't have kids and coaches paying for their lodging and meals. They invest in us, so I invest in them.
The cost is not the issue.... The reason behind it is of much greater concern (see previous post). Give me a state tournament format such as the one 2Sem mentions, and I am all over it regardless of cost.
To 2 Sem's post.... I don't see our state going to a one class state tournament, although I think it would a great to see those hammers from all those divisions scrappin it out in the semis and finals.
I think a better solution/compromise would be to go to 2 classes... Big class and small class. Combine 1-2-3A and 4-5A. Make each class a 16 man bracket where you still have 32 kids at the state tournament. Still run upper/lower state the same and then arrange seeding where 1st/5A vs. 8th/4A in 1st round, etc....
Our state is now deep enough to effectively and competitively do this. I had kids who did not qualify for the state tournament this year, who on a better day could have made the state finals last weekend. I'm sure the same could be said about other programs in all divisions.
Additionally, it's been a while since 2Sem and I have gotten into it at the table. I miss seeing him throw his hat!!
I think a better solution/compromise would be to go to 2 classes... Big class and small class. Combine 1-2-3A and 4-5A. Make each class a 16 man bracket where you still have 32 kids at the state tournament. Still run upper/lower state the same and then arrange seeding where 1st/5A vs. 8th/4A in 1st round, etc....
Our state is now deep enough to effectively and competitively do this. I had kids who did not qualify for the state tournament this year, who on a better day could have made the state finals last weekend. I'm sure the same could be said about other programs in all divisions.
Additionally, it's been a while since 2Sem and I have gotten into it at the table. I miss seeing him throw his hat!!
2sem, the bracket could be setup that you could still have an individual class champion if you make each quadrant of the 32 man bracket a division. The top quadrant 5A, the next 2A/1A, the next 3A and the last 4A. Your semifinalist would be each classes state champion and you could please everyone by having the semi-finals and finals everyone wants...the four state Champs in one spot at the same time.
You could do like PA does and rotate quadrants by weight class and nothing is ever released until after the qualifiers are determined.
You could do like PA does and rotate quadrants by weight class and nothing is ever released until after the qualifiers are determined.
D11 that is an excellent idea. Now let's start working on an improved, central venue.