Fellas.... 2 things here.... 1 we can get together online and have an argument over the most simple/complex things and voice all of our opinions, yet off our keyboards our sport is a whisper. If we put this much excitement and enthusiasm into making our sport better instead of finding ways to tear it down wed be doing wonders... 2, Why haven't we been talking/arguing like this all year on winners/results... it takes breaking the rules to get this much conversation, killing me
illegal scrimmage in the upstate
- Thread starter wildgreco
- Start date
Dleader,
Seen a couple of your posts and they are all about complaining about a team that lost to a state championship team. I hope you are not implying that Hilton Head coaches or parents are doing this. I have the upmost respect for KOZ and their program. They work hard. Eastside beat us in the state finals dual match because they are the better team. Plain and simple.
I simply was responding to this post regarding the practices before state. Has nothing to do with any program or any punishments. As I have said multiple times, I do not want any team, coach or wrestler to be punished for this. It wouldn't be fair to the kids. I do think that moving forward we need to have the entire state on the same page. There are many teams that do this because it has been accepted for a long time. That is why I feel there should be no punishment.
Mike Newton
Hilton Head Wrestling
rhino_wrestling_club_sc
Two Year Starter
Why wouldn't a high school coach want his kids working out a club? He gets to train with like-minded guys that want to put in the extra work to get better. He gets exposed to different workout partners and styles that he doesn't see everyday in his HS room. He gets to learn different technique that can compliment what he does. There 's also the smaller group size that benefits instruction. If done correctly, he also gets a year-round training cycle that doesn't get interrupted due to High School League rules.
Lots of other reasons why a coach should want his kid getting extra training in at a club.
Newton -
I apologize if that was my implication. I have no idea who wildgreco is or who he is affiliated with. I did assume that whomever he is affiliated with was best by Eastside along the way. That may not be the case. I've only had a few interactions with HH in my life and they've always been good ones.
I also think you've made it pretty clear that you believe if a rule is in place, it should be enforced but that no titles should be stripped in this scenario. I agree with that.
The problem is, letter of the law enforcement, while it seems should be black and white, is often not so clear. I'll give you an example from my own experience that fits the bill here. My senior year at the individual state tournament I was warming up for a match and drilled some with a wrestler from another school. His head coach was present. Two wrestlers from different schools practicing with head coaches present. Doesn't the letter of the law say this is illegal? Is that really the spirit of the rule? That's my issue. Again, didn't mean to implicate you or HH in my posts.
I apologize if that was my implication. I have no idea who wildgreco is or who he is affiliated with. I did assume that whomever he is affiliated with was best by Eastside along the way. That may not be the case. I've only had a few interactions with HH in my life and they've always been good ones.
I also think you've made it pretty clear that you believe if a rule is in place, it should be enforced but that no titles should be stripped in this scenario. I agree with that.
The problem is, letter of the law enforcement, while it seems should be black and white, is often not so clear. I'll give you an example from my own experience that fits the bill here. My senior year at the individual state tournament I was warming up for a match and drilled some with a wrestler from another school. His head coach was present. Two wrestlers from different schools practicing with head coaches present. Doesn't the letter of the law say this is illegal? Is that really the spirit of the rule? That's my issue. Again, didn't mean to implicate you or HH in my posts.
All good.
I would argue your case would be good because it was at the competition. It wasn't a practice. It would be like 2 baseball players from different teams who are friends warming up together before the game. It isn't a practice. Just guys having fun before their competition.
I just don't like getting involved with deciding which rules make sense and which don't. That isn't our job. Coaches just can't say it is good for the kids so let's practice together. Does that mean I can have more tournaments during the year? The HSL says we can have 16 dates. Can I take my team to 18 competitions and just argue that it is better for the kids? The HSL days you can have 1 preseason tournament. Can I take my team to 2 so the kids have more mat time and argue it is better for the kids?
Once we allow ourselves to break one rule then how many others can we break? That is my argument. If we as coaches agree to allow everyone to practice together then great. I just don't think we should do it now since the rule book says we can't. I'm not saying the rule is good or bad.
I do like the conversation going on though.
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Also has this type of thing always happened, probably? But now-a-days SOCIAL MEDIA, all it takes is for one person to post one thing and stuff gets out. 10 years ago would someone probably even had found out about this, no. Which is really sad because social media is an amazing way to promote our sport and desiminate information to fans and wrestlers. So now will you see people post less? Sad face.
Well, that's a slippery slope. Just because people found out about something, doesn't make doing it in secret OK.
I agree with Coach Newton that we should agree on a set standard and follow it.
I also believe that just because something has been done for a long time, does not make it ok. That goes for both the teams involved and, more importantly, the rule-book. Just because something is written that way, doesn't mean it's right. I feel we should change the rule to more accurately fit the spirit of the rule you intend. Like Dleader said, when you follow the rule by the letter, often the spirit of the law is lost. I would highly doubt the rulebook would intend to put any team at a huge disadvantage only because they had 2 state qualifiers that can hardly drill together because of their size difference.
Also, even with following the rule to the letter as some insist, there are still plenty of grey areas and ways to interpret what is written to fit someone's agenda. We could all throw a ton of 'what if' scenario's that further enforce our opinion.
One thing I would think everyone here would agree on is that we want the level of competition and skill statewide to continue improving. Personally, I think we are greatly hindering our wrestlers if we strictly abide to outdated rules like this.
If it were me, rather than being upset that talented wrestlers are working together, why not seek out opportunities for your wrestlers to get better similarly, find your local talent and resources and use it for the benefit of as many kids as you can.
also, l-o-freaking-l at saying things like "oh so you think it's ok to break a rule?".... come on... we aren't elementary school kids. if there is anyone in here who can say they've never broken any rule they disagreed with... or even agreed with... they are flat lying.
I agree with Coach Newton that we should agree on a set standard and follow it.
I also believe that just because something has been done for a long time, does not make it ok. That goes for both the teams involved and, more importantly, the rule-book. Just because something is written that way, doesn't mean it's right. I feel we should change the rule to more accurately fit the spirit of the rule you intend. Like Dleader said, when you follow the rule by the letter, often the spirit of the law is lost. I would highly doubt the rulebook would intend to put any team at a huge disadvantage only because they had 2 state qualifiers that can hardly drill together because of their size difference.
Also, even with following the rule to the letter as some insist, there are still plenty of grey areas and ways to interpret what is written to fit someone's agenda. We could all throw a ton of 'what if' scenario's that further enforce our opinion.
One thing I would think everyone here would agree on is that we want the level of competition and skill statewide to continue improving. Personally, I think we are greatly hindering our wrestlers if we strictly abide to outdated rules like this.
If it were me, rather than being upset that talented wrestlers are working together, why not seek out opportunities for your wrestlers to get better similarly, find your local talent and resources and use it for the benefit of as many kids as you can.
also, l-o-freaking-l at saying things like "oh so you think it's ok to break a rule?".... come on... we aren't elementary school kids. if there is anyone in here who can say they've never broken any rule they disagreed with... or even agreed with... they are flat lying.
Yes I've broken rules. Yes I've got caught breaking rules. Yes I've accepted responsibility for them. Just like the coaches will have to accept responsibility. I called on the HSL board on this forum because I'm sure they are members on it. I don't think a coach turned in any of the schools responsible. Could have been a social media sight like was suggested. I'm pretty sure it was. Change the rules, follow them or make new ones. Everyone do it the same.
So this is what I think about all of this. Kos is hopefully getting exactly what he deserves. A good kick in the butt and hopefully finding a new job. We are tired of this jerk pulling all of our good wrestlers from the surrounding schools to eastside. It's just pathetic. His groupies running around behind him is so funny. Just like a bunch of kids trying to fit in. He thinks he can bully the refs into doing what he says. Yes refs. We think you're in his pockets. It's obvious. All of you should be fired for this including the coaches for the illegal practice. Our county should put a stop to his recruiting our kids to his program. No school in our area will be successful with those guys at eastside.
Dleader, parterre57, suplex...you three must be low totem pole assistants or groupies your self. Let's not forget the old mav. Follows his master around like a puppy videoing his matches. So funny. Grown up kids. Let's also not forget the temper tantrum the great koz threw at individual state. What a putz. For an hour you and your coaches run around in a line from person to person like a trail of ants wanting someone to listen to you because you didn't get your way. Pathetic!! Grow up. Get out. We don't want you here anymore. You are ruining the programs around us.
Dleader, parterre57, suplex...you three must be low totem pole assistants or groupies your self. Let's not forget the old mav. Follows his master around like a puppy videoing his matches. So funny. Grown up kids. Let's also not forget the temper tantrum the great koz threw at individual state. What a putz. For an hour you and your coaches run around in a line from person to person like a trail of ants wanting someone to listen to you because you didn't get your way. Pathetic!! Grow up. Get out. We don't want you here anymore. You are ruining the programs around us.
Sounds like someone does not like to lose! Why complain about recruiting in Greenville county. If you do not want kids to be recruited then do not live in an area where school choice is the option.
Eaglehater - consider me one of the groupies. I wrestled for Eastside and owe a tremendous amount to the program and the sport. Was certainly no world beater but it taught me a lot of good lessons.
As far as recruiting goes, give me a break. That's the oldest excuse in the book. You don't want kids to go to a program that wins, find a way to win. Throwing out the recruiting excuse is a gutless way to avoid a hard look in the mirror.
As far as recruiting goes, give me a break. That's the oldest excuse in the book. You don't want kids to go to a program that wins, find a way to win. Throwing out the recruiting excuse is a gutless way to avoid a hard look in the mirror.
I'm sure there are a few hundred alumni wrestlers, parents, and administrators that would beg to differ Mr/Mrs Eaglehater000. Is Koz tough - yes, does he hold high standards for his kids - yes, is he passionate (especially if one of the refs you claim to be in his pocket makes a call that doesn't go his way) - yes. Then the recruiting complaint! Eastside Youth wrestling is open to all kids who want to wrestle. Kids and parents see the hard work and expertise that is given to the youth and Koz has no part in it - it's volunteer coaches who were involved in the program as wrestlers, and Coach Ed Coles - HOF coach. If running a great youth program attracts good wrestlers - start and run your own. There is no recruiting going on. I can think of numerous kids who came through the youth program that were successful at others schools. I'm an Eagle alum - didn't wrestle for Koz - was there in the 80s under Coles. I respect the way Koz runs his program - tough as nails and no compromises. Success breeds success.
Eastside wrestling starts in the youth room. Kids don't come into high school and win states as a freshman and sophomore unless you have been wrestling for a while and have a lot of experience. Most of those kids have been together since they were 4 to 5 years old and want to stay together. Stop complaining about losing athletes that were never yours in the first place. Koz has a system that works, like him or not, he has (with the help of many) continued a power house program that started before he was even coaching Eastside. I don't have a kid that goes to school at Eastside but I do believe in the system and in Koz.
Also, I would NEVER want my kid to wrestle for a coach who has to come on a message board to bash another coach. Personal attacks are childish and accomplish nothing.
Too damn funny! This has to be a disgruntled mom because no male win an ounce of testosterone would write this.
All very great point that is why I operate a Club in the off season. But as a public service announcement to all parents be sure that the environment you are sending your child into for instruction is a positive one with trained professionals. Rhino I think your club fits the bill but not all clubs do, keep up the good work. Do you agree with what I am trying to say.
oh my.. Appears I have hurt some feelings.
Scratman-I bet you're the very ref I'm referring to. That's why that comment hurts you so much. Poor thing.
Dleader- yes you a one of the following ASSistants that does as he is told that offers nothing to any of our programs in Greenville. And if you deny that eastside recruits from the rest of our county and others you're going to hell for lying. You will have friends there I'm sure.
Wrestler 125- you whine about injury time because rock hill beats your ass every time. You have no place in this discussion.
Suplex- well you're one of a kind. Always trying to fit in but never mastered the art of kissing ass. Just stay outside the circle or get in the middle. That's where Mav is waiting.
Swu- how many wrestlers from eastside have received a 4 year scholarship in the last 4 years to a major college and finished? Ur an old fart with time on your hands. Find that out for us please.
Tough time- your point? So what if my acct is new. What's it to you? Your club sucks anyway. At least that's what the other guys say.
Mav-.no I haven't forgot about you. I saved the best for last. You follow Koz around like a hooker on crack wanting her next fix. Well since you brought up the mom thing I figure that's how you feel most of the time is like a mom. Always wanting to do what she is told. Right?
When we get all you guys out of our county and sport, it will get better. All of you. I know you and you know me. Let's just be real. I just know the real you better than you think. There's more than one of us fed up with your egotistical bullshit. I really hope they fire every single one of you.
Truly yours
I am the eaglehater000!!!
Scratman-I bet you're the very ref I'm referring to. That's why that comment hurts you so much. Poor thing.
Dleader- yes you a one of the following ASSistants that does as he is told that offers nothing to any of our programs in Greenville. And if you deny that eastside recruits from the rest of our county and others you're going to hell for lying. You will have friends there I'm sure.
Wrestler 125- you whine about injury time because rock hill beats your ass every time. You have no place in this discussion.
Suplex- well you're one of a kind. Always trying to fit in but never mastered the art of kissing ass. Just stay outside the circle or get in the middle. That's where Mav is waiting.
Swu- how many wrestlers from eastside have received a 4 year scholarship in the last 4 years to a major college and finished? Ur an old fart with time on your hands. Find that out for us please.
Tough time- your point? So what if my acct is new. What's it to you? Your club sucks anyway. At least that's what the other guys say.
Mav-.no I haven't forgot about you. I saved the best for last. You follow Koz around like a hooker on crack wanting her next fix. Well since you brought up the mom thing I figure that's how you feel most of the time is like a mom. Always wanting to do what she is told. Right?
When we get all you guys out of our county and sport, it will get better. All of you. I know you and you know me. Let's just be real. I just know the real you better than you think. There's more than one of us fed up with your egotistical bullshit. I really hope they fire every single one of you.
Truly yours
I am the eaglehater000!!!
Wow! If you're this mad now, you're really going to be pissed off next year. And you don't know us that well like you stated. Because if you did you would know that I take great pleasure in your displeasure. So thank you ma'am for making my day a little better. But I will give you this, VERY WISE (and gutless) for not signing your name.
I almost feel bad for this guy, you have many many many more years of watching your team get beat ahead of you.
Who exactly are these recruits? I can think of two kids on special permission (both of whom wrestled in the youth program). We moved from Byrnes to Eastside because of our employment situation and yes wrestling (maybe that makes us recruits). If Jordie were a football player we would have probably left him at Byrnes (better program at the time sorry Eagles) but he got really connected to the youth program and Eastside clearly has a better wrestling program (sorry Rebels). Wrestling actually became part of Jordie's socialization at Eastside and where he has personally flourished beyond wrestling . He is extremely relational and we really think it was dleader who has had the single most significant impact on our son's wrestling (not only do they look alike they similar personalities and leader really knew how to connect with him). Maybe that counts as dleader recruiting us.
From a skill standpoint I truly think my kid would be just as successful a wrestler no matter where he went to school. There are plenty of hammers who came from small programs. The thing that no one can understand if you are not directly associated with eastside wrestling is the culture and connections of all involved. No one recruited us we joined.
As far as Koz conducting an illegal scrimmage/practice/being the shooter on the grassy knoll, Id bet the practice (if said practice did occur) was to help the other team more so than Eastside. Koz doesen't need anyone of you/them/us as practice partners to put together champions. The two individual State Champions on the team drilled with each other all year.
And lastly. Koz may be a jack ass to you but he his awesome with my kid, that makes him my favorite jack ass. dleader you are relegated to being second seat jack ass.
From a skill standpoint I truly think my kid would be just as successful a wrestler no matter where he went to school. There are plenty of hammers who came from small programs. The thing that no one can understand if you are not directly associated with eastside wrestling is the culture and connections of all involved. No one recruited us we joined.
As far as Koz conducting an illegal scrimmage/practice/being the shooter on the grassy knoll, Id bet the practice (if said practice did occur) was to help the other team more so than Eastside. Koz doesen't need anyone of you/them/us as practice partners to put together champions. The two individual State Champions on the team drilled with each other all year.
And lastly. Koz may be a jack ass to you but he his awesome with my kid, that makes him my favorite jack ass. dleader you are relegated to being second seat jack ass.
As an old fart, I'm wise to sarcasm - and this is the kind of sarcasm that tries to be funny but is rooted in anger and jealousy. He/she's trying to be tongue in cheek, but the true bitterness shines through.
A lot to digest here. Scrimmages - which in my opinion are two teams competing against each other informally - should be held during pre-season, not once the competitive schedule begins. However, I do not see the problem with members of one team practicing with another team if both coaches consent - especially in our sport where club programs and access to mats outside of the high school are practically non-existent.
What about a team that qualifies only a few, or one, members of their squad for State? How does this kid prepare if he doesn't have workout partners his size? I remember back in 2006 Lower Richland had only 1 kid on their whole team - he actually was the Lower State Champ that year but failed to place. I don't know how he practiced, but I would assume it was with another school. Mats are scarce, partners are scarce. I think it is good sportsmanship to allow an athlete from another school to practice with your team.
What about a team that qualifies only a few, or one, members of their squad for State? How does this kid prepare if he doesn't have workout partners his size? I remember back in 2006 Lower Richland had only 1 kid on their whole team - he actually was the Lower State Champ that year but failed to place. I don't know how he practiced, but I would assume it was with another school. Mats are scarce, partners are scarce. I think it is good sportsmanship to allow an athlete from another school to practice with your team.
I totally agree. On most teams, the guys who don't qualify for individuals move on to the next sport baseball,track whatever. They generally don't stick around for another week just to practice with the guys that made it. This leaves many teams with a few guys that qualified in a depleted room hopefully with somebody their size to roll with. The duals have been decided, I don't see the harm in kids from different teams practicing for their best chance to win a state title. Where I live, there are no clubs. Even if there were, most of the kids could not afford to go to them anyway. This rule should be changed.
Oh yeah, basketball builds sooooooo much character. Just look at the NBA...
I am afraid this will not turn out well for the teams involved as the SCHSL always follows the letter of the law. It's a shame as, regardless of what an earlier poster implied, our sport IS different. Different in a lot of ways, but primarily because our athletes do not have easy access to "practice" facilities. Every other HS sport I can think of can find a place to have an informal or formal practice session - most just need to find some grass - but wrestlers need a mat and a practice partner close to their size.
I would feel different about all this if it were before duals, but because it was before individuals there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with this and everything right about it. A team title WAS NOT on the line, only individual glory. It will be a travesty if the schools and coaches are punished for what I understand the violation was, but I fear that will be the outcome.
Just got back from the beach and felt it was time to stir that pot again. There's been so much I needed to get off my chest since my last post and just to comment on a few other posts. So let's get started.
Defensetrainer..... You answered your own question and gave my comment a factual base. You guys are recruits that came from Byrnes. Plus the other kid you mentioned. Byrnes could have had a state champ this year. Your family denied that program that opportunity for what or who? You said it yourself " if my son were a good football player we would have stayed at Byrnes. My son would have been good anywhere he wrestled. BTW- I agree, he is good. BUT, you moved him to eastside just because it's eastside. Would you have taken your son to the last two places koz coached? He wasn't very successful there at all. He stepped into an established program and started recruiting. Enough with you.
BoweT....one of my favorite refs. Not from around here. Don't care who the coaches are. Cares about each call for each kid. Not in anyone's pocket. You sir should be the boss of the refs in the state. Now don't get me wrong, there's many good refs in the state. Not all are in the eagles pockets. Just a handful or maybe 1 more than others. Get rid of them and that's the beginning of a good SC program. And just to be clear here. I do mean every word I'm saying. No tongue in cheek here. I'm having fun speaking the truth here. At least that's how many of us feel here in Greenville.
DMAHOLTZ.... I bet all of you have to give hugs to Koz after each practice or you're made to do monkey rolls. The only way to fix this is to fire all of you.
SWU... If you were wise you would have gathered the info I asked you to get for us to see. Now come on.... Chop, chop, chop.
Darth.... It's not ok to break the rules before team duels but ok before individual state. When you pull your head from the sand and clean you eyes please read the SCHSL rule book and see that it's a rule and must be followed. If it's a stupid rule, have it changed. Simple. I'm sure it will after this.
Mav....ole mav..... Tsk tsk tsk. Your vague threats are hilarious. Very wise to not sign my name? What do you want? Meet somewhere and duke it out? Please. You're a toothpick or is it a prick? Can't really tell. Not concerned about the thoughtless vague threats. I'm going to be pissed off next year? Sounds like you have some recruits coming in. Lucky for the Eagles I guess. I wonder how Travelers Rest or Blue Ridge is going to feel knowing they are loosing a few of their good middle school kids to eastside? HELLO GREENVILLE WHEN ARE WE GOING TO STOP THIS? A few of us can't do it alone. So did I get it right? You can tell me. I won't tell. You never know when to close that mouth. You just never know who around you is listening. You guys are so arrogant to think your circle is that tight. I do know there's someone else working for that head coach position.... Sweet mav. Are you safe in that circle of love? Not really. I hope they fire all of you. Greenville!!!! Get them out. Local schools!!!! Get them out and our programs will get better!!!!!! Open your eyes!!!!!! Open your ears!!!!!
And I am the Eaglehater000!!!!!!
Defensetrainer..... You answered your own question and gave my comment a factual base. You guys are recruits that came from Byrnes. Plus the other kid you mentioned. Byrnes could have had a state champ this year. Your family denied that program that opportunity for what or who? You said it yourself " if my son were a good football player we would have stayed at Byrnes. My son would have been good anywhere he wrestled. BTW- I agree, he is good. BUT, you moved him to eastside just because it's eastside. Would you have taken your son to the last two places koz coached? He wasn't very successful there at all. He stepped into an established program and started recruiting. Enough with you.
BoweT....one of my favorite refs. Not from around here. Don't care who the coaches are. Cares about each call for each kid. Not in anyone's pocket. You sir should be the boss of the refs in the state. Now don't get me wrong, there's many good refs in the state. Not all are in the eagles pockets. Just a handful or maybe 1 more than others. Get rid of them and that's the beginning of a good SC program. And just to be clear here. I do mean every word I'm saying. No tongue in cheek here. I'm having fun speaking the truth here. At least that's how many of us feel here in Greenville.
DMAHOLTZ.... I bet all of you have to give hugs to Koz after each practice or you're made to do monkey rolls. The only way to fix this is to fire all of you.
SWU... If you were wise you would have gathered the info I asked you to get for us to see. Now come on.... Chop, chop, chop.
Darth.... It's not ok to break the rules before team duels but ok before individual state. When you pull your head from the sand and clean you eyes please read the SCHSL rule book and see that it's a rule and must be followed. If it's a stupid rule, have it changed. Simple. I'm sure it will after this.
Mav....ole mav..... Tsk tsk tsk. Your vague threats are hilarious. Very wise to not sign my name? What do you want? Meet somewhere and duke it out? Please. You're a toothpick or is it a prick? Can't really tell. Not concerned about the thoughtless vague threats. I'm going to be pissed off next year? Sounds like you have some recruits coming in. Lucky for the Eagles I guess. I wonder how Travelers Rest or Blue Ridge is going to feel knowing they are loosing a few of their good middle school kids to eastside? HELLO GREENVILLE WHEN ARE WE GOING TO STOP THIS? A few of us can't do it alone. So did I get it right? You can tell me. I won't tell. You never know when to close that mouth. You just never know who around you is listening. You guys are so arrogant to think your circle is that tight. I do know there's someone else working for that head coach position.... Sweet mav. Are you safe in that circle of love? Not really. I hope they fire all of you. Greenville!!!! Get them out. Local schools!!!! Get them out and our programs will get better!!!!!! Open your eyes!!!!!! Open your ears!!!!!
And I am the Eaglehater000!!!!!!
